Humanists not included in Remembrance Sunday Cenotaph ceremony in London
Ekklesia have an article today lamenting the fact that a request from the British Humanist Association (BHA) for armed forces humanists to be included at the Cenotaph in London, was again refused.
As it happens, this is not an anti-humanist post, as I fully appreciate their wish to represent humanist soldiers.
I went along to my local Remembrance Sunday parade and was blown away.
Considering I live in a fairly rural area, there were literally hundreds of young cadets of all stripes, scouts and veterans, together with the police and fire service, and a marvelous military marching band.
There were hundreds of members of the public lining the streets to observe the march and the whole event was spine tingling. I was particularly proud as my ten year old son was marching with the Sea Cadets.
Once we arrived at the war memorial – which happens to be outside the church – the vicar took over proceedings and the wreaths were laid and we entered the church for the service of remembrance and reconciliation.
Strangely, it was at this point I thought about atheists, humanists and secularists, as it was the very fusion with Christianity which gave this event meaning beyond the secular. The collective prayers and petitions to God for the fallen….
Let us remember before God, and commend to His sure keeping: those who have died for their country in war; those whom we knew, and whose memory we treasure; and all those who have lived and died in the service of others
….the marvelous hymns and poems for reconciliation between people groups. I was particularly struck with the collective community holiness and solemnity of the proceedings. It was the very Christian aspect which provided the community glue and perception of togetherness in collective solemn remembrance.
All of sudden I felt pity for those who would desire the removal of Christianity from such occasions and who would exclude themselves from this type of collective worship.
I cannot conceive how a community could even begin to mark such an occasion without the Church, and of course God Himself.
For me, it was the revelation that humanists, secularists, and atheists might never understand or appreciate the essentiality of Christianity and the wonderful meaning this brings to such occasions.
Frankly I felt sorry for them and wondered if they would refuse to participate in the Christian element if they were present.
Tags: Christianity, Religion Society
November 16th, 2010 at 10:25 am
Does remembrance require belief? I wouldn’t have thought so, myself.
November 16th, 2010 at 10:44 am
This is a confused blog post. You seem to think many of us atheists have no experience with church services or with ritualized solemnity of any kind. You have no need to feel sorry for me in the slightest; I know Christian services quite well, as a matter of fact. Perhaps when you feel like having a basis of mutual respect rather than misapprehension and mistaken patronization (“… I felt sorry for them …”) , then we can have a productive dialogue.
As for how “a community could even begin to mark such an occasion without the Church, and of course God Himself”, two remarks:
1) are you unaware that many such ceremonies around the world are in fact completely secular?
2) God is claimed by many and proven by none.
I don’t particularly agree with aggressive exaggerated secularization; on the other hand, your post here makes me almost sympathetic to the NSS. It’s also rather ironic the post starts off with the exclusion of humanists and yet goes on about humanists apparently being all exclusive. For your information, I as a humanist and as an atheist find it quite easy to generally respect others’ faith insofar as no rights are curtailed. Remembrance Sunday is fine by me, church participation is fine by me, now, about that exclusion of humanists again? What’s up with that?
November 16th, 2010 at 11:43 am
Good post. My feelings exactly (so it must be good
)
November 16th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
I don’t think anyone need feel sorry for the BHA. They do not represent the measured and tolerant humanism of Gurdur – this is just part of an ongoing campaign to remove all references to religion from public life. Step 1: get humanist representation at the Cenotaph. Step 2: complain that the ceremony is offensive to them and demand that it be re-written.
November 16th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
I seldom take issue with your posts Webmaster, but in this case I’m very much with Gurdur. I have to say that I find your post extremely patronising, and rather confused.
For example, on the one hand you praise the Church for imbuing meaning beyond the secular, whilst appearing to perceive no irony in saying how spine tingling you felt the marching bands and crowds lining the street, and how proud you felt of your son in his uniform. These are decidedly secular feelings, and I rather suspect that most people present were not there because of any religious feelings.
Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying it’s wrong to feel this pride or inspiration – but isn’t that the whole point of National remembrance events? They are surely intended to be inclusive – and to tell one significant group of well meaning people that their request to express their remembrance in their own way seems to me to be churlish to say the least. Is it any surprise then that Humanists should be annoyed?
I don’t know if you or many of your readers have ever been to a well conducted Humanist ceremony, but I can assure you that they can be every bit as meaningful, poignant and life-enhancing as their religious counterparts. I would go so far as to say that becasuse it takes a lot of commitment and effort to go against the flow in holding a Humanist ceremony, the meaning is all the more felt. By contrast I have often felt in Church that at least 90% of the people there are just going thrugh the motions.
The Religious do not have a monopoly on finding meaning in remembrance. I know I risk being called oversensitive, but put the boot on the other foot and see how it would feel if the roles were reversed.
Having said all that, I can understand the difficulty that the establishment would have in making this concession to Humanists. This is very much a Royal occasion, and beset with protocol, as befits such a solemn occasion. It’s more the reaction to this that riles me.
November 16th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
And Charlie : For most members of the BHA I think you are wrong about step 2.
November 16th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
1) are you unaware that many such ceremonies around the world are in fact completely secular?
2) God is claimed by many and proven by none.
1) No I wasn’t aware.
2) God is disproven by none, and rejected by a few.
So why are BHA wanting to get in on a Religious Service, when they not a faith group? Especially in the light of the information that Gurdur has supplied, they can go to a secular remembrance service that are held worldwide, as Gurdur has rightly pointed out to us.
But the good news is at least you can understand why the invitation to the BHA to the Centaph Service was not extended. They are not a faith group.
November 16th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
@ webmaster: I have to agree with Simian – and others – that this post is below the high standards we’ve come to expect.
“There were hundreds of members of the public lining the streets to observe the march and the whole event was spine tingling. I was particularly proud as my ten year old son was marching with the Sea Cadets.”
Very understandable, but nothing to do with faith or lack of it.
It’s often struck me that the inclusion of God in words about war is uneasy – during a war both sides usually claim God is on their side and when we remember the fallen we also know that all of them probably thought they were serving both God and country: doing the right thing. The line from Henry V “Cry ‘God for Harry, England, and Saint George!” is stirring stuff, but it’s also nonsense. Jingoism too often employs God.
As for not being able to imagine a Humanist version, I’ve attended three Humanist ceremonies (all funerals) and found them more moving and far more personal than most of the half a dozen Christian ones I’ve been at. Perhaps because Humanism is a relatively new thing they just try harder? As people can do whatever they want the service tends to be more genuinely about the dead person and the bereaved. There can be a feeling of “insert name here” in church funerals.
November 16th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
@ Phoebs: The Remembrance Sunday ceremony at the Cenotaph contains a brief service, but it’s not what I’d call a wholly religious ceremony. There’s a great deal more to it than that. You could just as easily call it a military ceremony. Or a royal one. The stated purpose of the ceremony is “to commemorate the contribution of British and Commonwealth military and civilian servicemen and women in the two World Wars and later conflicts.” There’s no mention of God, just of commemoration, which doesn’t require faith.
The original Ekklesia story tells that similar ceremonies in other parts of the country include Humanist representatives, and I can’t see any reason to exclude them from the Cenotaph either. Ipsos Mori did a survey in 2007 which suggests Just over a third of the British population has a Humanist outlook on life. If this is so, they warrant representation.
November 16th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
I do wonder how many actually went to a remembrance Service. Who prayed the below, who sung God save our Queen.
I think that at times, many of the non and nominal christians, do not realise that this is November, Saints tide and the Church has been praying and remembering the departed daily, for the last 2 weeks, this will continues until Advent.
Loving God,
We remember in your presence all those who have died in War
And those who still live with the pain of losing someone they love.
We remember people who, today, live in fear of their lives
And those who fear the knock on the door or the telephone call that heralds bad news.
We remember politicians and others who hold positions of power and influence
And whose decisions can lead to other people’s life or death.
And we commit ourselves not only to pray, but to seek and make peace
In our relationships, in our communities, and in our World.
Lord hear us.
Lord Graciously hear us.
Amen.
November 16th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
I don’t see why the webmaster should have to justify his feelings of pride. Emotions don’t need to be rationalised. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic. It is patriotism which made our country great. It is the pathetic lack of it which diminishes us all and allows our culture to be subsumed. I agree with Charlie. (I don’t know why you bother to read Ekklesia, though.)
As a soldier’s daughter and a Christian, I do feel sorry for secularists, atheists and humanists, who presumably believe there is nothing better for the fallen – that their lives just end. Mind you, I think that without God, just about everything is pretty meaningless.
November 16th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Thanks Jill, I agree. By the grace of God we are such a great nation and our millitary is supported by the church and our God. Many probably don’t realise that we pray for this country, our leaders and armed forces, week in, week out.
My son has a Sea Cadet prayer card, which is held in high regard and they actually pray it….often:
Marvelous. They fight for and serve their country and their God in whom they put their trust and it has worked well for centuries.
November 16th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
I do feel sorry for secularists, atheists and humanists, who presumably believe there is nothing better for the fallen – that their lives just end.
And that is the very crux for me personally. We believe those who have died in combat for our freedoms, have offered the ultimate act of love, and that is to lay one’s life down for others. The ultimate sacrifice, just as Christ did for us, and for which there is a sure reward with God.
If there’s nothingness after death, then what is there to hope for in terms of the fallen? What is there to celebrate?
November 16th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
@ Webmaster: Luckily, we’re not alike. It’s a varied world – and we’re a varied nation. It may be hard to understand what Humanists want to commemorate but, given that they do, why shouldn’t they?
November 16th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
@Sophie, I made it clear that I fully appreciate their wish to represent humanist soldiers. And they should, just as they wish.
November 16th, 2010 at 7:51 pm
Webmaster, Jill and Phoebs,
I think you have misunderstood or misread some of what Gurdur and I wrote.
1. I do not see anything wrong in feeling immense pride. I absolutely agree it is appropriate. That was not my point at all.
2. I was in the Army for 20 years. I have seen friends killed. The fact that in my view there is no God and no afterlife does not diminish one iota anyone’s desire to repect the memory of their comrades, to be grateful that chance has spared them, to take pride in their own achievement, and to try ensure that future genrations do not forget the awful price that is the most lasting legacy of conflict.
3. It has been said that the only people who think that armed forces are fighting for God and country are new recruits and civilians. No harm in that I suppose, but it’s most definitely not what those in the thick of it are fighting for.
4. Webmaster: You said: “If there’s nothingness after death, then what is there to hope for in terms of the fallen? What is there to celebrate?”
There is everything to celebrate! For example; I am immensely proud of my grandfather’s conspicuous gallantry and his Military Cross. His example reaches across death, and across generations. Conflict will bring out aspects of people that they would not otherwise have realised.
And because they cease to exist after death, the dead can have no regrets, no ‘what if’s’ to worry about, no eternal damnation for some. Nothingness is a great destination. Beyond pain, beyond feeling, beyond the shackles of existence. Sounds ok to me!
A being that experienced diembodied eternal bliss would not be me, but something else. Something I have no desire for, even if it were on offer.
November 17th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
And because they cease to exist after death, the dead can have no regrets,
Hi Simian, could you bring the hard evidence that ‘they cease to exist’.
Of course you cannot not, as this is your particular personal belief.
As Christians we do not believe that death is the end, the departed are not dead or lost forever, and so therefore there is always hope.
A being that experienced diembodied eternal bliss would not be me
This is not the teaching of Christianity. It sounds more buddhist. Christians believe in the Great Resurrection, (Christ was the first person to experience this Resurrection).
Jim, can I recommend ‘Surprised by Hope’ by Tom Wright, it is an excellent book, which lays out clearly what the Christian Hope is, below is a brief synopsis.
“What do Christians hope for? To leave this wicked world and go to ‘heaven’? For the ‘kingdom of God’ to grow gradually on earth? What do we mean by the ‘resurrection of the body’, and how does that fit with the popular image of sitting on clouds playing harps? And how does all this affect the way we live in the here and now?Tom Wright, one of our leading theologians, addresses these questions in this provocative and wide-ranging new book. He outlines the present confusion about future hope in both church and world. Then, having explained why Christians believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus himself, he explores the biblical hope for ‘new heavens and new earth’, and shows how the ‘second coming’ of Jesus, and the eventual resurrection, belong within that larger picture, together with the intermediate hope for ‘heaven’. For many, including many Christians, all this will come as a great surprise.Wright convincingly argues that what we believe about life after death directly affects what we believe about life before death.
For if God intends to renew the whole creation – and if this has already begun in Jesus’ resurrection – the church cannot stop at ‘saving souls’, but must anticipate the eventual renewal by working for God’s kingdom in the wider world, bringing healing and hope in the present life. Lively and accessible, this book will surprise and excite all who are interested in the meaning of life not only after death but before it.”
November 17th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Thanks Caral,
I totally accept that your viewpoint is as valid as mine. I respect your view and I would not wish to change it. Of course we can only speculate about what happens when we die. I have one belief. You have another. Others have different beliefs again. I have rationalised my thoughts on the subject and what I have concluded makes sense to me.
I really do struggle to accept the idea of Heaven, or bodily resurrection, from an intellectual perspective, in whatever form it takes. To me it seems to be a human creation based on desire rather than need or evidence. I will have a look at the book to which you refer me though. I am here to learn, and I hope I don’t have a closed mind about anything. Thanks again.
November 18th, 2010 at 9:54 am
As a Postscript, yesterday evening I attended a meeting of Central London Humanists. The topic was Humanist Celebrations, or ‘Hatch, Match and Despatch’. The speaker was truly inspiring, and it reminded me just how wonderful ceremonies can be when released from the straightjacket of religious protocol. Those affected by the ceremony are much more involved and the event is far more personal and many would argue far more meaningful. I would recommend anyone who gets the chance to go to a Humanist celebration to see this for themselves. It might change your views about feeling sorry for us….
November 18th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
just how wonderful ceremonies can be when released from the straightjacket of religious protocol.
Pretty much confirms Charlie’s comments.
November 18th, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Er, No Phoebs. This is not the same as saying I want to have religion removed form the Cenotaph memorial service. The whole point of Humanism is to be inclusive rather than exclusive. All Humanists are asking for is overt inclusion in the Act of Remembrance.
My point is that for ceremonies where there is not a precedent to respect then Humanist ceremonies can be a very wonderful, and meaningful alternative to a religious ceremony.
The context is my response to our Webmaster’s question.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:17 pm
Er Yes, Simian,
Let me quote to you part of your earlier post.
I would go so far as to say that becasuse it takes a lot of commitment and effort to go against the flow in holding a Humanist ceremony, the meaning is all the more felt. By contrast I have often felt in Church that at least 90% of the people there are just going thrugh the motions.
So perhaps the humanists who seem so forthright in wanting to be released from the striaght jacket of religion, and as you seem to be so much happier, that your own ceremonies are far more heartfelt, with so much more meaning, then perhaps you should continue to ‘celebrate’ on own, in a purely secular ceremony. Rather than casting judgmental aspergens on Christian worship. Then those of us who, who respect all religions, (as the organisators of the Cenotaph did, by inviting 14 different faiths to be represented at this event,) can give thanks to God.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
@ Phoebs: My understanding is that the Humanists just want to be involved, not that they want to take over.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Phoebs.
You misinterpret me again. I apologise if it appeared that I wanted to take over anything. I’m not sure how I can ake it any clearer. As Sophie says, and as I thought I had said, I do not want to take over the Remembrance Ceremony. I just want to be included, along with all the ‘faiths’. To devote a national day of remembrance for religious people only seems to be wrong, and excludes a sizeable number of people who are every bit as keen to pay their respects.
November 18th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
It may be that the kind of reaction reported from Norfolk makes many Christian groups wary of the ultimate aims of some humanists although I know many would not go down this route!
“A decision by a Norfolk fire chief to ditch Christian prayers during his brigade’s annual Remembrance Day service has been met with astonishment.
Staff at Norfolk Fire and Rescue Service used to hear prayers said by a local chaplain before and after the traditional two minute silence at 11amnew chief fire officer Nigel Williams replaced prayers with poetry readings after he was told that some staff were “uncomfortable” with the religious aspects of the service.”
November 18th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
I just want to be included, along with all the ‘faiths’. To devote a national day of remembrance for religious people only seems to be wrong, and excludes a sizeable number of people who are every bit as keen to pay their respects.
Simian was you banned from attending your local Remebrance Sunday Ceremony? I imagine not, but did you attend?