Is the National Secular Society (NSS) gravitating towards hatred of religion in the name of secularism?
The Spitoon have just posted a piece relating to the National Secular Society, the British “comedian” Pat Condell, the “Ground Zero Mosque” and Islam.
Basically, Pat Condell is vehemently opposed to the Ground Zero Mosque and his “rantings” have been applauded by the anti-Muslim, far-right brigade in the US.
The problem is that Pat Condell is not only a member of the National Secular Society, but was nominated for their 2010 “Secularist of the Year“.
The Spitton conclude with:
You may be resolutely pro-secularism, as we are, but supporting the NSS becomes problematic if it turns out to be little more than an institution which advocates bigotry and prejudice in the guise of secularism.
I’ve oft noted that in the pursuit of secularism and the fight against extremist, hate-filled and bigoted religion, it’s all too easy to become extremist, hate-filled and bigoted.
Tags: Religion Society
September 4th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
It is also all to easy to name call and shoot the messenger, in any case islam is a political ideologie feigning as a religion. How patronising is it to think that muslms have not got there own agenda and do not have aims and objectives in Western societys, this patronising ignorance is the superiority complex of multiculturalism that will bring the mass social egineering of the equality brigade to a bloody end if we are not careful.
September 5th, 2010 at 11:43 am
The NSS has not nominated Pat Condell as “Secularist of the Year.” His name appears in a list of 22 people nominated by the public, not by the NSS. Requests for nominations do not demand that participants be members of the NSS.
The 2010 Prize was actually won by Southall Black Sisters (SBS). Announcing the prize, NSS President Terry Sanderson said: “Southall Black Sisters (SBS) was set up to meet the needs of Black and Asian women who are the victims of domestic violence or injustices in the legal system. The main aim of the organisation is to help women to gain more control over their lives, to be able to live without fear of violence and be able to assert their human rights to justice, equality and freedom. SBS are right on the forefront of the feminist struggle in this country. They celebrated their thirtieth anniversary last year, being founded in 1979 during the Southall race riots.”
Mr Sanderson said that the group had been chosen to receive the prize because they provide a secular space where women fleeing violence or injustice — often resulting from religious attitudes — can find a safe haven.
My problem with the NSS is that to join you have to state that you don’t believe in the God. I visited the site intending to join – I’m convinced that a secular state is our best defence against religious fanatics – but was deterred by this condition of membership.
I plan to contact the NSS about this because I am sincere about wanting to join despite my beliefs. I’ll let this blog know whether I have any success.
September 5th, 2010 at 6:12 pm
@Sophie.
“My problem with the NSS is that to join you have to state that you don’t believe in the God.”
Has the NSS hijacked and misappropriated secularity and redefined the meaning towards a hostility to Gd or religion rather than one of a separation from religious affairs.
Is it not possible for a christian to practise secularity such as the separation of church and state.
September 5th, 2010 at 9:46 pm
No, the NSS has not “hijacked and misappropriated” anything. You should find out a bit more about its history, and the history of the word “secularism”.
In fact, you don’t have to “state that you don’t believe in God” to join the NSS, but it is constitutionally an organisation for those who reject religion – specifically supernaturalism. Whether it ought to be, or not, is a subject of perennial debate. But that’s the situation as it stands.
Dan
September 5th, 2010 at 11:51 pm
Like any organisation comprised of self selected members, the NSS has its share of members who hold extreme views, but as an organisation overall that is not the case.
September 6th, 2010 at 12:27 am
Secularism is a belief in equality in politics -source NSS website.
To believe that there is equality in political ideologies now that is supernaturalism. How ironic that secularism derives from christianity.
In any case in its strictest (modern) sense secularism is the separation of church and state – only, the NSS are taken it to an extreme where it would not be surprising if they demanded the christians be denied the vote on the grounds that it breached the separation of church and state.
September 6th, 2010 at 7:45 am
Goy – That is an absurd argument and conclusion.
And I don’t recognise and could not find your quote on the NSS website. Could you be more specific.
September 6th, 2010 at 9:06 am
@Jim,
Richard Gilyead, letter to The Guardian: “Secularism is a belief in equality in politics, education and law, regardless of religious belief.”
Reading some of the content on the NSS site at first I thought it was the Labour Party website but it was to extreme then I thought it was the SWP website but it was extreme the ultimate conclusion was that NSS covertly stands for National Socialist Society due to the rabid extremism.
September 6th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
And there ends any possibility of serious discussion.
I won’t be coming back unless I’m sure the troll is gone.
Dan
September 6th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
@ Goy: Richard Gilyead isn’t a spokesman for the NSS. He’s an IT consultant from Cirencester. I assume you think Thomas Jefferson and the ex-governor of New York State are NSS spokesmen too, as they are also quoted.
Thomas Jefferson died in 1826, 40 years before the NSS was founded, and yet according to your logic he’s making statements on its behalf. Supernatural or what?
September 6th, 2010 at 3:11 pm
This might be helpful too:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/secularism-and-the-national-secu.html
September 6th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
@ Dan: The troll is always with us. I usually just step over him.
September 7th, 2010 at 10:20 am
@Sophie,
@Dan,
I have serious concerns about the NSS and other undemocratic lobby groups the NSS is essentially pressuring for what would be a constitutional revolution and massive shift of power within the British State – not that I am for the status quo but the NSS is disegenious regarding these matters there is more of a political agenda here than one solely concerned with shall we say the practicalities of separation of church and state.
September 7th, 2010 at 10:36 am
@Sophie,
@Dan,
I did not place the Richard Gilyead or Thomas Jefferson quotes on the NSS website as a backfill to the definition of secularism the logic and supernatural reference to the quotes was the act of the NSS.
September 7th, 2010 at 10:55 am
@Sophie,
@Dan,
Lest we forget in living memory , the negation of christianity and the absolute separation of church and state has been a factor in two of Continental Europe’s mass killing machines.
September 7th, 2010 at 9:50 pm
Goy.
Will you now please accept that you were wrong and retract your comment in which you used the partial quote “Secularism is the belief in equality in politics?
As you finally honestly admit in your follow-up post, the full quote is “Secularism is a belief in equality in politics, education and law, regardless of religious belief.” the meaning of which is wholly different to your selective quote, and makes sense, unlike your purposely selective quote. If I said “Goy is damned” it would mean something very different to saying Goy is damned wrong”.
September 7th, 2010 at 11:05 pm
@Jim,
The partial and full quote is in the context of the debate and the contention that secularism of the kind being pushed by the NSS along with the negation of christianity will not establish equality in politics, education and law regardless of religious belief.
The regardless part of the quote is the part that is confusing you a clever framing of words by the author.
September 8th, 2010 at 8:28 am
@ Goy: What’s your problem with the sentence ““Secularism is a belief in equality in politics, education and law, regardless of religious belief”?
To say that everyone, whether Catholic, Sikh or atheist, should be equal in terms of politics, education and the law is surely wholly uncontroversial? Please clarify.
September 8th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
@Sophie,
In step with the dumbed down times the NSS has focused and turned the debate into Gd as a celebrity or imaginary friend phenomenon.
The debate is in fact about political power, the presumption of the quote is that politics, education and the law are not egalitarian due to having in part been founded on christianity.
To remove christianity would fundamentally alter those institutions in such away that a power vacuum would be created what ideology, philosophy or even whim will fill that power vacuum?
To understand the contention and the quote think of it this way -
All are equal under the jurisdiction of the good judge, regardless of religious belief and then all are equal under the jurisdiction of the bad judge, regardless of religious belief.
September 8th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
Goy,
My dear late mother was a reasonably intelligent person but brought up in a society where it was considered vulgar for women to be educated. As a result she had a rather idiosyncratic way of arguing. She had very strong views about religion and politics and as a teenager I felt compelled to try to explain why I did not agree with her.
It was a very frustrating and ultimately fruitless exercise. When she could not win an argument she would change the subject and state that I was just wrong and that’s all there was to it, or she would just ignore my logic and repeat her position, only louder, as if I was some damned foreigner who would of course understand English if only he was not so deaf and dim.
You remind me of her…
September 8th, 2010 at 6:44 pm
Obviously you are still rebelling against your dear late mother and gd.
September 8th, 2010 at 11:06 pm
If that’s how you see it Goy, perhaps you have not understood. Oh well. I tried.
Incidentally, why on Earth do you persist in writing gd? What’s wrong with the word God?
September 9th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
@ Jim: It’s a bran new affectation. G**d save us!