eChurch Blog

Regular readers will know that the issue of suicide is something very close to my own heart and especially the [for want of a better phrase] theological implications this sort of tragedy throws up for the Christian community.

This previous post probably sets out clearest my own personal experiences and understanding on this difficult topic.

Anyway, Michael Patton of the Parchment and Pen blog of whom I have the utmost respect has just blogged on this topic in relation to an email he received, which I want to share with you here as this covers some very common questions asked following a tragedy of this nature:

With kind permission:

Do People Who Commit Suicide Go to Hell?

Here is an email question that I received with the response to follow:

Good Afternoon:
I am writing to you under emotional pangs, as I wrestle with the Scriptures, and what I hear from certain others who are Christian.

The husband of a friend of mine committed suicide. My friend, I know well, and her love and defense of the Scriptures. But I only know of her husband’s belief by what she tell me, and his attendance to church. She said he prayed a lot and loved God, her and their children.

But he yielded to suicide. And from what I understand, this was a long term fight to avoid that. He subsequently said he was going for walk, and he was found in a park, after shooting himself.

Here is a man who “claimed” to love Jesus, but his actions to me, deny his having made Jesus Lord and Master over his life. Rather, he must have had Satan as master.

I used to believe in “free will” but after a long study of the Sovereignty of God, I changed my mind. That study took several years. So I can’t say this man had free will unless he remains outside of God’s Lordship, where he does what the flesh does…. denies the power, promises, and love that God has living within us.

The pastor at the services said what my friend said, he is in heaven, due to the Grace of God.

But how can a person be tempted to kill himself then actually follow through with it, if he has Life in him? And Hope. These reign over Death and Hell.

My Response

Thanks for the questions. These are very good questions, and necessary to struggle with.

You said: “But how can a person be tempted to kill himself then actually follow through with it, if he has Life in him?”

How could David have killed Uriah? How could Peter have denied Christ. How could John have fallen down and worshiped an angel? How could Paul struggle with sin the way he does in Roman 7? Why would Paul exhort Christians to “walk in the spirit and therefore not carry out the deeds of the flesh” if it was a foregone conclusion that Christians cannot walk in the flesh? How could the Galatians (whom Paul considers “brethren”) have turned back toward the law after knowing Christ? How could the Corinthians live as spiritual babes, living in strife, jealously, and envy?

The answer: we are all sinners.

My sister committed suicide. She had been with me at seminary and was one of my primary means of encouragement throughout my younger ministry years. She was a prayer warrior, an aspiring evangelist, and one of the most generous people I have ever known. She fell into depression—terrible depression. Depression is a powerful result of the fall that ends up taking a lot of people’s lives. What she did was sin. Yes, it was premeditated as well.

What sins, in actuality, are not premeditated? There are not many . . . They are mainly personality and spirituality characteristics such as outbursts of anger, jealousy, and faithlessness. But most other sins are premeditated. If God does not forgive premeditated sins—if somehow these are the sins that are not covered by the cross—we are all in trouble.

I don’t know whether the gentleman who went on a walk in the park was a Christian or not (my heart hurts just thinking of his walk), but I do know that the cross of Christ redeems us from all sin, no matter how severe, no matter how much premeditation. Were suicide less traumatic, were it just a push of the button, I doubt that there is any who would escape its fate (we probably would not make it through our teen years!). Have mercy on this man. What he did was sin. What he did will have terrible and lasting consequences (just like any murder), but to think that this necessarily means he was not a Christian is unbiblical and well beyond our ability to judge.

The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses (present tense; 1 John1:7) us from all sin, not just some sins.

Some may say that all sins have to be confessed before death. I disagree. To say that we cannot have unconfessed sin when we die is problematic both biblically and practically. Biblically, Paul is clear that once we have faith in Christ we have been saved. This salvation is primarily from the ultimate penalty of our sin—eternal death. If we cannot truly be saved until we die with all sins confessed, then we cannot ever say that we are saved as Paul does. The best we can do is say we might be saved (i.e. if I die without any unconfessed sin). Salvation would always have to be spoken of as a contingent possibility, not a present reality. Yet Paul says to the Ephesians “By grace you have been saved” (Eph. 2:8). Christ says in John 6:24 “Whoever believes in me has eternal life.”There is no contingency here. The question becomes, Do you really believe?

The practical problem is this: If you do have to die without any unconfessed sin, how are you to be spiritually aware enough to remember all your sins? What if you forget one? What about the time you sped through the school zone? What about the time you pridefully thought about your promotion at work? What about the time you envied your neighbor’s new sprinkler system? What about the time you said you were sick, to avoid something, and you really weren’t? From a practical stand point, everyone will die with unconfessed sin. Most of these will include serious sins such as greed, pride, and envy. Therefore, we are all bound for hell? This trivializes the cross, forgiveness, and sin.

Christ’s death is a once for all remedy to our damnation. Because of this grace and forgiveness we should live a life that is pleasing to him, but some of us won’t do so well. That is what makes grace so wonderful and radical—indeed, beyond belief.

Hope that is helpful.

Just so we don’t forget…..

Christian Today:

North Korea has executed three leaders of the underground church and jailed 20 other Christians, reports a news agency focused on Asia.

Although the execution and imprisonment happened in mid-May, news only got out this month.

According to AsiaNews, North Korean police raided a house in Kuwal-dong in Pyungsung county, Pyongan province, and arrested all 23 believers who were gathered there for religious activity.

The leaders were sentenced to death and soon after executed. The other 20 were reportedly sent to the infamous prison labour camp No 15 in Yodok. The 23 Christians had come to faith after some of them travelled to China on business and met with church members there.

North Korea Intellectual Solidarity, a group of North Korean defectors based in Seoul that seeks to raise awareness about injustice in North Korea, confirmed the events.

For eight straight years, Open Doors has ranked North Korea as the world’s worst persecutor of Christians.

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A few links I found interesting for one reason or another:

Science and Theology – Beyond Apologetics

Church of England – Seventh year in a row that Religious Studies A-Level grows in popularity

Dr Jim West – People Please, Obama isn’t a Muslim

Parchment and Pen – Has Modern Science Made Belief in Demon Possession Unnecessary?

Roger E Olsen – Is there one evangelicalism?

Telegraph – Dr Tali Argov’s claim that her career suffered and she was made redundant after she and her husband joined the Church of England was rejected by an employment tribunal.

OneSimus Online – I am very small

Anglican Samizdat – More on the ground-zero mosque

Previous posts: here and here.

Guardian:

A Catholic adoption agency has lost its attempt to restrict its service to heterosexual couples after the Charity Commission found there was no justification for barring gay and lesbian parents.

Leeds-based Catholic Care sought exclusion from the 2007 sexual orientation regulations and began legal action to change its constitution so it could continue helping married couples only. The commission initially refused to give its consent, but the charity won the right to appeal against its decision.

Catholic Care told the high court that it would have to stop finding homes for children because Catholic donations would cease if it helped gay prospective parents. Mr Justice Briggs instructed the commission to reconsider the case.

But the commission said today it could not accede to the charity’s demands, with its chief executive, Andrew Hind, saying the decision had been “complex and sensitive”.

He said: “In certain circumstances, it is not against the law for charities to discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation. However, because the prohibition on such discrimination is a fundamental principle of human rights law, such discrimination can only be permitted in the most compelling circumstances.

“We have concluded that in this case the reasons Catholic Care have set out do not justify their wish to discriminate.”

A one-line statement from the Catholic bishops of England and Wales said the welfare of children had “always been Catholic Care’s primary concern” and that it would now carefully consider the ruling.

Catholic Care said it was very disappointed by the outcome as it would reduce the number of people recruited as adoptive parents.

It would now consider whether there was “any other way” in which the charity could continue to “support families seeking children in need”.

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Further Media Links:

Associated Press – A Catholic adoption service was facing closure after it lost its latest battle with the Charity Commission for the right to be able to discriminate against gay couples.

Telegraph – The last remaining Roman Catholic adoption agency to resist Labour’s equality laws is facing closure, after the charity watchdog ruled that it could not avoid considering same-sex couples as potential parents.

ThirdSector – After being told to reconsider its ruling that Catholic charity could not discriminate against gay prospective parents, regulator reaffirms original decision

Catholic Herald – The Charity Commission has ruled that the Catholic Care adoption agency must allow gay couples to adopt children.

This is a cross-post by Bishop Nick Baines (with kind permission) which I personally found really positive and encouraging:

Being neighbourly

Bit of an odd-sounding title, isn’t it? But, it’s the title given to an initiative being explored at present by the Church of England and the Government. Slipped on to the Church of England website the other day (wisely not trumpeted as it is ‘work in progress’), it shows some entrepreneurial spirit on behalf of the Church in testing out the reality of David Cameron’s ‘Big Society’ notion. After all, being a ‘good neighbour’ is what Jesus told his people to be.

The Church of England is actively discussing with Government plans for a major extension to the pastoral work of parish churches, particularly in multi-religious neighbourhoods. These propose a variety of ways in which the recognised strengths of the Church of England can contribute to the flourishing of people in these neighbourhoods.  The Church Urban Fund with its 25 years of experience of supporting local communities in deprived urban areas, will oversee the programme.

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles and Baroness Warsi, Minister in the Cabinet Office, have affirmed the role of the Churches and Faith communities at the heart of local communities and have spoken positively of the unique contribution of the Church of England’s 20,000 local churches, schools and centres at the heart of every neighbourhood.

What is particularly significant about this is the recognition that the Church of England is committed to the thriving of all in our communities, not just those who ‘belong’ to the church. This is rooted in the theological assumption that the church is a means to an end and not the end in itself – the church is called to be a sign of the kingdom (presence) of God and to give its life to that end. We may fail a million times – and need to be recalled to that central vocation – but this remains our commitment.

The statement goes on:

The Church of England’s ethos as the national Church is to have a duty of care for all parishioners irrespective of their religious belief or none. A consequence of this has been its very substantial contribution to inter faith initiatives at local, regional and national levels and with all Faith communities.

The proposals have the strapline “Being Neighbourly” and could include new support for street and neighbourhood level initiatives; partnerships with national faith based and inter faith organisations and work with young adults.

The Church of England believe these proposals could be a significant affirmation of the contribution of faith communities to the ‘Big Society’.

This reinforces the point that what is often loosely called ‘establishment’ does not have to do with privilege and status, but with service, obligation and sacrificial commitment to our communities. And rather than whinge about the deficiencies of Cameron’s ‘Big Society’ (is it a con or a concept?) or the slowness of the Church of England as an institution in responding to a changing social scene, it attempts to get on and shape something for the future.

The Minister responsible, Eric Pickles, said:

For years, churches and other faith communities have been quietly making a huge difference day-in and day-out, to every single neighbourhood in the country – something that has not been sufficiently recognised by central Government. We can together build on the huge amount of experience faith groups have in getting out into the community. The Church of England’s proposals to extend their work with communities are very interesting and we are looking at them closely.”

The Church of England gets used to being knocked – often with good reason. This looks to me like a good reason for optimism and support. Detailed proposals are to be discussed in the autumn and we will watch this space to see what emerges in due course.

I’ve just noted an interesting five-part series over at the ConservativeHome blog written by Dr Martin Parsons and looking at the Christian community’s relationship with, and perceptions of, the Labour and Conservative parties.

Haven’t had the chance to read through all of it yet, but will link to them here for my benefit and for anyone else who might be interested:

Part 1 – Labour’s attack on Christian liberties

Part 2 – Conservative response to Labour’s attack on Christian liberties

Part 3 – The scale of the Christian voting community

Part 4 – Did we alienate Christian voters at the election?

Part 5 – What next in the Conservative Party’s relationship with Churchgoers?

Some good news.

Previous posts, here and here.

Compass Direct News

A Coptic Christian blogger arrested in Egypt on false charges of insulting Islam, then held for almost two years without charge under the country’s Emergency Law, has been released from prison.

Hani Nazeer, 31, a high school social worker and blogger was arrested Oct. 3, 2008 in response to a link to a Coptic Web site he placed on his Web log, “The Preacher of Love.” The Coptic Web site had a link to an online copy of “Azazil’s Goat in Mecca,” a controversial book written in response to “Azazil,” a novel critical of Christianity.

While the Egyptian author of “Azazil,” Youssef Zeidan, won awards internationally and across the Arab-speaking world for his book, the link to “Azazil’s Goat in Mecca” earned Nazeer one year and nine months in prison. Nazeer said that when he posted the link, he did not know the Coptic Web site had a link to “Azazil’s Goat in Mecca,” and that he has never read the book. Nazeer said there is a double standard in Egypt when it comes to any critique of Islam.

During his imprisonment, Nazeer said he was beaten, exposed to constant deprivation and was pressured to convert to Islam by violent criminals.

“One prisoner told me, ‘If you convert, you will be out in two days,’” Nazeer said.

He was released on July 22 because of recent reforms to the Emergency Law.

Nazeer’s Web log was exclusively dedicated to human rights issues and concerns facing Egypt’s ethnic Coptic community. He had previously brought attention to himself by criticizing the ever-increasing Islamization of Egyptian civil society.

Nazeer also singled out leaders in the Coptic Orthodox Church and lamented their involvement in politics. In one post, Nazeer wrote that a gathering of activists at a Coptic church building was inappropriate because church buildings were meant to be venues for prayer, not for politics.

He said that despite the controversy, his real problems started the last week of August 2008 when someone in his village discovered the Web site link, and groups of angry young Muslim men began to riot. A local priest brought some of the rioters to meet with Nazeer in an attempt at reconciliation, to no avail.

“He tried to explain to them that the situation was not as they saw it, and that I was not the one who wrote it, and that my link wasn’t to the story – it was to another site,” Nazeer said. “They were so angry, but some of them understood, and some of them did not understand.”

For the next three days, the youths ripped through Qena, a village in Upper Egypt, protesting in the streets, throwing stones at houses and verbally assaulting Copts. The demonstrations happened during Ramadan, Islam’s most sacred month. It is unclear if any of the teenagers or men were arrested on any charges.

Nazeer went into hiding during the riots, seeking sanctuary in a monastery near Qena. The State Security Investigations unit (SSI), Egypt’s secret police agency, took two of Nazeer’s relatives into custody and aggressively interrogated them to obtain his location. Eventually Nazeer turned himself in so the SSI would release the two men.

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Source: N T Wright – The Challenge of Jesus – Page 131:

What is the Christian answer to it all? The Christian answer to it is the love of God, which goes through death and out the other side. What is missing from the postmodern equation is, of course, love. The radical hermeneutic of suspicion that characterizes all of post-modernity is essentially nihilistic, denying the very possibility of creative or healing love. In the cross and resurrection of Jesus we find the answer: the God who made the world is revealed in terms of a self-giving love that no hermeneutic of suspicion can ever touch, in a Self that found itself by giving itself away, in a Story that was never manipulative, but always healing and recreating, and in a Reality that can truly be known, indeed to know which is to discover a new dimension of knowledge, the dimension of loving and being loved.

Richard Dawkins

Richard Dawkins, the UK’s most prominent atheist, will today call on Ofsted to force faith schools to bring religious education into the national curriculum. Professor Dawkins said that the move would be the first step in ending what he calls the “wicked” practice of inculcating children with religious belief, as he steps up his campaign against religious education with a film that calls for the abolition of faith schools.

But in an interview with The Times, he made a striking admission — far from condemning parents who fake belief in order to get their children into a good school, he even could imagine doing so himself.

In Faith School Menace?, the evolutionary biologist argues that faith schools are socially divisive and educationally damaging. Citing the Troubles in Northern Ireland, where almost all schools are sectarian, he says: “If it wasn’t for religion, and especially religious education going on down the generations, you wouldn’t have a label by which to know who to oppress.”

He told The Times that his visit to Madani High School, an Islamic school in Leicester, revealed the educational dangers of faith schooling. “When I talked to a handful of girls and to their science teacher I was really shocked to discover that every single one of them rejected evolution because when in doubt they would always put the Koran ahead of science.”

Professor Dawkins said that the end of faith-based education would mean “religion would be taught in a comparative way according to a national curriculum, not indoctrination”.

The solution, he said, was straightforward: “Faith schools should not be allowed to opt to out of religious education. Yet they are given this free pass to do religious education in their own way, which is not inspected by Ofsted.” He added: “Many people want to send their children to faith schools because they get good exam results but they’re not foolish enough to believe that it’s because of faith that they get good exam results.” Anecdotes of parents suddenly discovering God shortly before school admissions season are certainly common, and Professor Dawkins is sympathetic.

“I don’t want to cast any blame on them. It’s hypocrisy that is imposed on them by a ridiculous and unjust system. It’s something that taxpayers shouldn’t be tolerating.” In fact, if he were in the same situation, he might be tempted to do the same thing.

“Since I have absolutely no belief at all, I wouldn’t be betraying anything,” he said.

Faith School Menace? will be broadcast as part of Richard Dawkins’s Age of Reason season tonight on More4 at 9pm

Here we go again.

Telegraph:

Two registrars are being investigated after allegedly refusing to conduct same-sex partnership ceremonies because they went against their religious beliefs.

It is claimed they swapped their shifts at a register office informally to avoid the civil unions.

Both work at Lambeth town hall in Brixton, south London, where ceremonies for same-sex couples have been offered since 2005. The allegations were made by another registrar at an equality seminar in May.

A member of the Labour council’s lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender forum was at the seminar and complained to the borough’s chief executive, who ordered an investigation.

Brian Palmer, a Lambeth councillor who is homosexual, asked at a full council meeting what measures were being taken to prevent a similar situation happening again. “Such actions will be grossly offensive to many members of the borough’s large LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] community including myself,” he said.

Steve Reed, the council’s leader, replied: “The council must and will comply with all legislation and our own equalities codes in this regard. Any failure on the part of officers to comply will be dealt with appropriately.”

He said the chief executive would ensure that all staff were aware they were obliged to provide services equally to all residents, adding: “This council does not tolerate bigotry for any reason.”

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Obviously I don’t know if these religious beliefs are Christian although I suspect this will be the case and if it is, I’m sure we will shortly be hearing from one of the Christian legal groups.

On the face of it, it would seem that these registrars simply informally swapped shifts to avoid conducting same-sex civil unions, which didn’t impinge on the registrars’ service in administering civil partnerships.

However, given that this has now progressed to the “investigation” stage and bearing in mind recent failures of similar legal cases, this doesn’t bode well for these registrars.