Will check the ref and get back to you

You are correct, the Discussion with A*** is out of place, however Calvan left and responded to the original comment. I will however not discuss it further.

In regard to Bonhoeffer, clearly there was a correct answer for him. Hitler and his cabal were clearly evil incarnate, beyond moral redemption, and intent on prolonging the suffering of the world. Killing them was not an act of murder, rather it was an act of justice. At times an individual’s action fall so far beyond the pail that vigilante action is justified.

In the story of Phineas (Lev 25:6,9), Phineas kills the Israelite, engaged in an act of moral defyment of God by having sex with a Moabite woman in public, likely as part of an idolotorous practice, while Israel was being smitten with a plague. Phineas’s actions, extra-judicial as they were, were aimed at stopping the very act that was causing an existential threat to the Israelites. The Israelite in his morally repugnant behaviour was bringing the wrath of God upon all of Israel (actually, more realistically, he was challenging the moral authority of Moses, thus dividing the Israelite people, either way, equally as harmfull for them). Killing quashed Gods anger and saved the entire nation.

At the heart of the matter is not a notion of “lesser evils” but rather the need to combat evil. If by killing Hitler, or some Hamas leader, evil is eliminated, then the action is justified on its own.

And “Christian My A***” — does it surprise you that websites will not publish your posts? Your nickname is calculated to be offensive and your words to inflame. Why should reasonable intelligent adults wish to debate with you?

The thread asks some fundamentally important questions, which deserve to be treated with respect. Is that too much to ask?
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Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s dilemma is a tough one. Surely there is no “right” answer. A rationalist might justify the killing of one person to save many; the lesser evil preventing a greater evil. But how do you square that with the Commandment “Thou shalt not murder”?

Coming forward to the present day, are Mossad justified in the extra-judicial killings they are alleged to have committed? I’m sure lawyers will get rich arguing for one side or the other, and unfortunately there are uncomfortable echoes of Bonhoeffer. Looked at from Israel’s perspective they could justify this killing as a lesser evil preventing a greater evil. I suspect though that the defence will be that a state of War exists, and that al-Mabhouh was a legitimate target.

My view: Painful as it is to say so, I think the killing could be justified. But I’m not sure I would be able to do it.

A) The lack of charitably of their Arab brethren how have cynically used them as political propeganda pawns in their struggle against Israel. The Arab world, who share religion, language, history and culture with the “Palestinian refugees” have made no attempt whatsoever to alleviate their poverty or to assimilate them into the broader population of their countries. Au Contrary, the Arab nations have deliberately prevented any form of absorption into their countries, deliberately sustaining and prolonging their impoverishment, and suffering over several generations.

B) The continued existence of Palestinian refugees status as a generational inheritance also reflects the double standard as it applies to Israel and the Palestinians. Normally refugee status is limited to the people that actually flee, and reasonable attempt is made to resettle refugees in other places. The definition of “refugee” does not provide for an inherited status accept as it applies to Palestinians. The Palestinian’ shave their own, unique, UN agency whose mandate is to sustain rather than solve the refugee issue (UNRWA). As I mentioned above, the easiest solution to the Palestinian refugee problem is to allow the refugees out of the camps and to allow them equality of citizenship in the countrie were they reside today. Most of these “refugees” were actually born outside of Israel. And as noted above, are all but indistinguishable from their host neighbours, linguistically, religiously and culturally.

Your rant about the siege of Gaza, again speaks to great propaganda, but is rooted in lies that have no bearing on reality. In fact Israel provide Gaza with electricity (which is largely unpaid for) fresh water (dito, and the infrastructure for its delivery is being systematically destroyed by the Hamas regime in the quest to build missiles to attack and provoke Israel), food supplies etc. The squalor that Palestinians live under in Gaza, such as it is, is a direct result of their “government” action and policy (again I refer you to one example, of tearing up the water pipes to build munitions, and for provoking Israel into war which the Hamas Government new was neither in the interest of its citizens nor one they could materially benefit from).

As for war crimes, I categorically reject the idea that Israel systematically committed war crimes in its actions last year against Hamas. Hamas, again acting against the interest of the average citizen of Gaza, used the citizens of Gaza as human shields (do you doubt this) as it prosecuted its actions against Israel. While Israel has an obligation to minimizes non-combatant casualties, it has no obligation to commit national suicide, or to endanger her civilians or soldiers because the tatics of her enemies effectively mean that she cannot avoid civilian casualties. It was a direct consequence of Hamas tactics that resulted in Gazan deaths during the conflict. But then again it was Hamas’s intention that Gazans be killed by Israel, for its propaganda value. They know that fools like you will swallow their line, hook line and sinker.

Israeli settlements, “ethnically pure”; Clearly you have never been to Israel, or a settlement.

As I said, your moniker suits.

Well that is a complete red herring. Where did I say Jews should not be able to live wherever they want? They should, of course, but not at the expense of Palestinians.

The fact is, Israel was created through one of the most grotesque acts of ethnic cleansing in history. The hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in squalid refugee camps are testimony to this fact. The denial of the Palestinians the right to return is flagrant denial of their human rights. The bulldozing of Palestinian homes in Jerusalem is a flagrant denial of human rights. The refusal of planning permission to Arabs in Jerusalem is a denial of human rights. The siege of Gaza is a flagrant act of cruelty. The bombing of Gaza was a war crime. The creation of ethnically pure “settlements” in the West Bank is an echo of the Nazi creation of “judenrein” settlements and a complete abomination.

Why does Israel get away with this? Because it suits the interests of Israel’s backer, the United States. But the question is, for how long? As world opinion wakes up to the horrors of Zionism, and the sheer arrogance of Israel (as seen in the recent actions of Mossad) Israel is becoming more and more of an embarassment.

If you try to state these facts at Harrys Place, you get banned. Why? Because it is inconvenient. Not to Jews in general but to the pro-Israel Jewish elite.

Which inconvenient fact is that? That Arabs who did not flee at in 1948 are today citizens of the State of Israel, entitled to all the protections of law embodied in that state?

The problem with you comment is that it is so propagandist that it actually has no bearing whatsoever on the truth. i.e. It is a complete and utter lie.

Let me ask you arshole, how many Jews were allowed to return to their homes in East Jerusalem and Judea/Shomron during the Arab hegamony of those territories. Why should Israel be held up to a standard of behaviour that its protagonist are not required to hold.

How many Jews today live in Yamit, or Gaza.

Your moniker says it all.

Yes, they certainly label people who point out inconvenient facts as “trolls”. No question about it.

Or perhaps they don’t like trolls.

Actually I did. But Harrys Place did not have “the bottle” to publish it. You see, they don’t like being told what they don’t want to hear.

I notice that you didn’t have the bottle to post your above comment over on Harry’s place…I wonder why???

Of course, the reverse is actually the truth. God’s Chosen People have cleansed “undesirables” from Palestine and refuse them the right of return. They even put up an apartheid wall to keep them out, while stealing the Palestinians’ water.