CHRISTIANS – Why did your God make the 7.3 Haiti earthquake this afternoon? & Christians, would you like to applaud your “loving” God on the earthquake he allowed to happen in Haiti?
I have just read through the harrowing article from Ruth Gledhill over at the Times, detailing the death and destruction that has happened as a result of the Haiti earthquake. This is is how Ruth begins:-
Not only has Haiti’s cathedral collapsed in the devastating earthquake in this poorest of poor countries in the Caribbean, but now it is clear that the Roman Catholic Archbishop, Monsignor Joseph Serge Miot, is among the many dead. Cafod has this afternoon pledged £100,000 and Pope Benedict XVI has appealed for generous donations to help this much afflicted land. According to Times foreign corr Anne Barrowclough, people were running in all directions, screaming ‘Jesus, Jesus.’ See also the extraordinary Twitter updates from Haiti DJ Carel Pedre as the earthquake happened. ‘Haiti is still shaking! Help!’ reads one.
I have read on the Internet of the collapse of hospitals, schools, government buildings, UN buildings and on and on and yet I also came across questions like this:-
Am I just naive or does anyone else find it strange that the first thoughts of some, to a tragedy of this scale, is to ask questions of this nature?
I’m not denying that some folk who claim to be Christian, will no doubt come out and say some bloody stupid things about this disaster and try to explain it away in terms of ‘Divine retribution / judgement’ or some such crap.
The irony of course, is that 95% of the Haitian population claim Christian beliefs:-
Wiki:-
About 95% of the population claim Christian beliefs, although the most professed denomination by far is Roman Catholicism. Similar to the rest of Latin America, Haiti was colonized during a period during which Roman Catholicism was prevalent among European monarchs. Following in this legacy, Catholicism is enshrined in the Haitian constitution as the official state religion, and between 80 and 85% of Haitians are Catholics. Pope John Paul II visited Haiti in 1983. In a speech in the capital of Port-au-Prince, he criticized the government of Jean-Claude Duvalier; it is believed that the impact of this speech on the Catholic bureaucracy in Haiti contributed to his removal in 1986.
According to the Catholic Church in Haiti, the ten dioceses of the two ecclesiastical provinces of Haiti count up to 251 parishes and about 1500 Christian rural communities. The local clergy has 400 diocesan priests and 300 seminarians. There are also 1300 religious missionary priests belonging to more than 70 religious families. Vocations to the priesthood are plenty[1].
The Seventh-day Adventist Church, Pentecostalism, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses movement also have significant followings. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims more than 14,000 members in Haiti.[2] 10-15% of Haiti’s professed Christians are evangelical protestants.
So Haiti is a predominantly Christian country and Christian Churches throughout the world are scrambling their resources, to help in any way that they can, as quickly as possible and yet the first reaction of some is to use the tragedy to mock Christians and their Christian God?
This tragedy shouldn’t be used as yet another opportunity to have a pop at Christians, even if some professing Christians are talking complete rubbish:-
Pat Robertson blaming the earthquake on Haitians and their deal with the devil
Tags: Christianity, News
January 13th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
If I may, I’ve got a few thoughts on this. First, let us remember the only partially joking statement that atheists have two rules: (1) There is no God, and (2) I hate him. The few atheists who I’ve had the pleasure of discussing beliefs with, when it came down to it, all have admitted that rather than really having reasons to believe there is no God, their rejection of faith is based on their belief that the universe does not reflect the existence of a loving God. For people who are struggling over the goodness of God, a disaster like this may make them angry, and cause them to lash out at Christians. Of course, that’s only based on what I’ve seen: I can’t speak for atheism in general.
About 95% of the population claim Christian beliefs, although the most professed denomination by far is Roman Catholicism.
Ouch! What a backhanded slap in the face to Catholicism from Wikipedia. And as to Pat Robertson, I will simply keep my peace and say nothing good or bad.
January 13th, 2010 at 8:41 pm
Very insightful points Mitchell.
January 13th, 2010 at 9:03 pm
I address this today in my column.
http://www.examiner.com/x-35125-Charleston-Calvinist-Examiner~y2010m1d13-Did-God-cause-the-Earthquake-in-Haiti
POE is an issue that all systems must deal with. A Christian is not the only one that must answer it. For those that do not believe in God, for them to admit evil when they see evil, says many things, which in the end points to a GOOD. Well, I’ll not rewrite what I said in my column, but you can read it if you wish.
peace…james
January 13th, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Thanks for the link James.
January 14th, 2010 at 3:03 am
God uses Earthquakes and natural disasters as a “Wake up” call. We need to repent! If you look closely..America is the wealthiest nation ( in God we trust on the money) But I have a feeling this will change very soon because America has turned against God and Obama won’t be able to solve it because he is only a Man like us.
America still being one of the strongest christian nations in the world. So we don’t get much natural disasters except for recent event in Katrina( which is very low in Christianity)
Earthquake in China ( communist and abandons the bible and many are idol worshipers)
Tsunami and South east Asia( most are idol worshipers)
Now Haiti…at 7.3 why because they created the spread of Haitian “voodoo” witchcraft!! which is the devil works.
Hope this helps read Matthew 24:7
January 14th, 2010 at 7:45 am
Bold Faith Type have done a piece on Pat Robinsons’s comments:-
January 14th, 2010 at 8:26 am
Jake said ..Now Haiti…at 7.3 why because they created the spread of Haitian “voodoo” witchcraft!! which is the devil works.
I am so pleased that I do not worship the same god as you.
My God came to save the world not condemn it. John 3:17
January 14th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Jake you are a brainwashed nutcase. Holy sh!t.
January 14th, 2010 at 10:23 am
Jake
In the famous words of Mahatma Gandhi…………………..”I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Please explain that if, in your thelogy, God is punshing Haiti why isn’t he punishing the US nation for their history of mistreating the native American Indians, slavery, segregation, etc etc not to mention their exploitation of the developing world, support for right wing dictatorships and their death squads etc. There are many ways one comprimises and makes pacts with evil. Sometimes it is by looking away and doing nothing that we do the most ill.
January 14th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Well said Annie.
January 14th, 2010 at 10:55 am
PS
No wonder we Christians have a bad name. The pact with the devil sounds a slightly dodgy story anyway (I haven’t checked it out yet) but the slaves must have been very desperate and even the US allied with Stalin when it suited them politically. Also I think Pat has picked on the wrong Napoleon , his grasp of history is always a little suspect.
Hopefully most Christians are loving and compassionate and along with many non-christians are sending in money and aid. Unfortunately it’s the Robertsons and Falwells of the world that get the attention of the press.
January 14th, 2010 at 10:58 am
That’s right Annie
January 14th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Jesus is very much loving. He loved you so much that He died on a cross for your sins. Whether you choose to accept his gift or not is up to you. The biggest majority of the people in Haiti practice voo doo in some form and believe they can cast spells or visit with dead ancestors. Why do you blame God for an earth quake if you don’t beleive He is real? Just suppose He is? Why not blame the earth’s crust? Natural disasters happen all the time yet nobody blames Allah or the devil. Why is that?
January 14th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
I happen to know after spending three years in Haiti that the majority of the people there practice Catholic as well as voo doo religion. Most believe that the Catholic and voo doo religion can inter mingle. I know they give food to the spirits and believe they can communicate with the dead. Why blame God our Father for this earth quake though? Why not blame their spirit gods or Allah or Budda?
January 14th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
to what extroadinary branch of christianity do the so called christian missionaries who scrambled for the first out belong? surely they could have helped in some way.The young woman interviewed on the BBC seemed only to be interested in herself and the trauma she had suffered , a good talking point at her next dinner party no doubt. People like this give Christianity a bad press.
January 14th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
My thoughts exactly Susanna when I first saw the TV clip. I hope the young woman interviewd will look back one day and realise what a poor advert her interview was for the Christian gospel. On reflection, I suspect that the group were some Bible College youngsters on a short evangelical mission trip , not real missionaries with any real life experience or practical skills to offer. They should however have been able to help the local population shift rocks with their bare hands and/or donate blood, which must be in short supply. They all seemed to wear very clean matching red T-shirts, would that identify their college?
January 14th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
Annie,
You express only a limited view of God. While it is true that God is loving, he is much more than loving. He is LOVE itself. We would not know love apart from God. At the same time, God can and does hate. God is said to have caused the earthquake, because God is in full control of the world. If he is not in control and he has no power to take control, he is not much of a God now is he? The fact is, that God has the power to stop earthquakes as well as the power to send earthquakes. This is not to say that the earthquake was because of Gods wrath or hate or judgement as Pat R said. God has his reasons and we may never know why. But we can know this …that God sent or allowed the earthquake for good. We may not see good in it, but God knows how to run his world better than us.
Peace…james
January 14th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
James
I don’t think that I implied that God was not in control. I am a layperson not a theologian but if I beleive in Him, I accept that in His permissive will He allowed this terrible tragedy to happen. That is beyond my understanding…………I only see through a glass darkly. What I did query was Pat Robertson’s claim on US television that the earthquake was a direct punishment of God for someting that happened (or probably didn’t happen) in the 1790s. Even if Pat Robertson really really believes the myth of the pact with the devil, surely now isn’t the time to be discussing it. The legend says that the curse would last for 200 years so it would no longer be in effect anyway or is Pat Robertson’s maths as bad as his history? On the You tube clip Pat Robertson seemed to think that the French were ruled by Napoleon 3rd (1808-1873) at the time of the slave rebellion whereas it was his uncle Napoleon Bonaparte (1769_1821) who was the ruler.
January 14th, 2010 at 6:24 pm
All I have to say is bad things happen to good people.. i happens.. so just get over it
January 14th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
To make the long story short..this sums most of my point of view. h
ttp://www.gotquestions.org/natural-disasters.html
And I don’t agree with what Robert Paterson’s recent comment on Haiti.
“God sometimes causes natural disasters as a judgment against sin. ” In this case, Haiti’s ecomony being 1/3 on slave trades, voo doo magics etc.
January 14th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Isn’t it strange that calling the tragedy irredeemably tragic, something for which there could be no excuse, seems strident, just because doing so happens to hold the acknowledgment of unmerited suffering as more important than the vindication of a being called God? It is out of respect for God’s personhood that we question him.
Not a single atheist would say that Haiti earned this by being Christian. Only the religious viewpoint is capable of seeing this event as justice, as a consequence of inherited wrongdoing, or as anything but thoroughly awful. In no way do I mean to accuse all, or most, religions of viewing disasters that way; the vast majority simply accept them with tears, and with hands fully ready to work and sweat and break for the welfare of a fallen fellow human. The “Why, God?” question becomes irrelevant, as perhaps it should be.
There are many lights in this darkness. This is not an evil world; it is a beautiful one. My favorite approach to the Problem of Evil is Stephen Law’s very humorous God of Eth. I find it an uplifting reminder to appreciate the good in the world for what it is, and condemn the bad for what it is, not for what a god did or didn’t do with it. However, I don’t necessarily recommend reading it so soon after so awful an event.
(If the sole complaint is that atheists are asking these questions “instead” of helping the victims — why take the bait and waste any time responding to them, “instead” of helping? Look how many comments are on this page— clearly, for whatever reason, people feel the strong need to defend God, rather than just dismiss the Problem and do something else. I’m sure just as many, if not more, theists’ “first reaction” to the news was the exact same question of “Why, God?”)
Atheists feel that if God truly exists, natural disasters must be either passive or active terrorist acts. On the whole, events like this simply do not result in greater goods for which we should be thankful — they are totally gratuitous. This is not a callous or spiteful interpretation of earthquakes — it is simply seeing things as they appear to be. I may be wrong, but I’m not going to bet on it. I’m not going to tell a Haitian that this was all for the best, although I would do my best to express my faith (if you want to cal it that) that things will improve.
A consistent theist, on the other hand, has to be grateful that this earthquake happened, so that we could respond with our compassion (if one subscribes to that particular theodicy, the one theodicy I personally find the most reasonable). I find that idea a little sickening, as it makes the Haitians sacrificial pawns in a story that’s really all about the rest of us, we who choose whether or not to help.
One does not break a child’s leg (or allow it to break) so that a doctor can choose to heroically heal it. Like Ivan Karamazov, atheists consider such a god and respectfully return the ticket. However, in the absence of an opportunity to turn back the clock and undo the whole thing, we help. We combat the evil. We assist whereever and whenever we can. It may be trite, but it’s true: Christian, Hindu, atheist, we’re all in this together. Let’s make the best of it.
January 14th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
I love how all of you speak of god as if you have met him in person. No one knows anything about god, what he does, or if he even exists. Stop pretending you do.
January 15th, 2010 at 2:52 am
I’m just wanna say that God didn’t allow the earthquake to happen in Haiti. Haiti has been practicing voodoo and witchcraft since over hundreds of years. God is obvioulsy not gonna be with that nation. Shit happens when you’re not with God, youre vulnerable to let the devil work upon you. That is what happened to that nation, they didn’t have a God to proctect them.
P.S. My condolences to all the victims.
January 15th, 2010 at 2:59 am
By the way, I find it kinda funny that is when natural disasters happen that atheists and agnostics bring up God and how unloving He is for letting stuff like that happen. Why don’t you guys wonder where God is when good times are going on? Can’t you see God when you have roof above your head? A meal on the table or sheets on your beds? …. are you thankful? You might think, I have all of these ‘cuz of my hard work, well, I believe God gave these people a chance to get a job, or a good education or capacity to get what they have….. Just a thought.
January 15th, 2010 at 3:23 am
God didnt do this. a fallen a.k.a. sin filled world did this. God would have loved to have stopped the earthquake but he can only do what we allow him to do. if you reject him, he cant really do anything for you because you dont want him to. Breaks his heart when bad things happen to people. but sin ties his hands in a metaphorical way.
January 15th, 2010 at 7:15 am
What caused the earthquake?
- Movement/collision of tectonic plates…not god.
Oh and how about all those christian missionary groups down in Haiti that were trying to help. Were they just “casualties”. I have a friend who was in Haiti trying to help with the situation. Luckily she and the rest of her group were fine, but i’m sure there were many many who were not so lucky.
Ivan…i am not going to thank god for the roof over my head, or the sheets on my bed. God had nothing to do with it. God didn’t help my dad past tests in highschool to get into college. god didnt help my dad work his ass off through college to get a well paying job. And god sure as hell isn’t helping my dad with his job right now..(unless god is a computers salesman?) Your idea of god is so far-fetched its almost comical.
Tectonic plates caused the earthquake.
And one more thought…suppose you were born and raised in Haiti. Your parents practiced voodoo and witchcraft since you were little. Do you honestly believe that if you grew up in a family that practiced voodoo, you would not believe in it? If you were born in a hardcore muslim family you would most likely be muslim. If you were born in a hardcore Jewish family you would most likely be Jewish. If you were born into a hardcore atheist family you would most likely be atheist. There is no denying this. If you do deny it then you are just being naive. People believe what they were raised to believe. If i had a kid and told him that a green monster ruled the world, and showed him these made up drawings and this story someone wrote about the monster…and preached to him about this monster every sunday…he’d grow up to believe the green monster existed and ruled the world.
Open your eyes.
Oh and if i didn’t mention it already….the earthquake was caused by tectonic plates.
January 15th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
It is sometimes said (not with much factual basis, admittedly) that Stalin made the trains run on time. Should we be grateful to God for all the good things in the world? Perhaps, although many of them turn out to be the result of human beings such as rescue workers and nurses, and it just doesn’t feel right to say “Oh, but God acted through them.” My main point is that (perhaps) a deity, being in principle without flaw or frailty, is only as good as the worst thing he lets happen without sufficient secondary good to justify it.
The main thing I fail to grasp about Ivan’s post is “My condolences to all the victims.” Huh? Does this not contradict his prior insinuation that they brought this upon themselves?
The book of Job deals thoroughly with the problem of unearned suffering, and the best answer God can give is basically “I’m God, and you’re not.” God doesn’t even bother to accuse Job of eating the fruit of the Tree — in fact, his case rests on the opposite fact, that Job wasn’t there during creation at all.
A world that “fell” because of the actions of two people in a distant time (who were not even told that eating the fruit would cause the world to fall, just that it would cause them to die that same day) is no different from one with a somewhat-good-somewhat-bad god, or one with no god at all. And if Adam caused the world’s evil, does this not make him the Gnostic’s Demiurge?
Anyway, none of this argument is meant to slander the religious, only the religion. (Hate the sin, etc.) Nearly all the victims of this disaster were Christian, and ultimately, that’s irrelevant to the question of their suffering, and the question of how best to help them. We are all merely and majestically human — including, it seems sometimes, God.
January 15th, 2010 at 6:24 pm
God is God, and if he was explainable, then he wouldnt be. God doesnt fit in a box. Yes, read the book of job. bad things happen to good people just as good things happen to bad people. it doesnt make God any less. I will leave that up to him to defend.
January 15th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
If he was explainable then he wouldn’t be god? Call me crazy but i would only believe in a god that i could actually explain. An unexplainable god is most likely a made up god.
January 15th, 2010 at 7:48 pm
You have a lot of people that are going to say this is God pouring his wrath on the Haitian people for being demonic, idiots like Pat Robertson. I just want to project a real and honest Christian voice here and say this…
This world sucks, and it sucks because we’ve pushed God out of it. God doesn’t MAKE bad things happen. He doesn’t decide, you know, I’m done with those sinners in Haiti. I’m going to abuse them. NO. Our God is a God of Love, a God of Goodness, and because we’ve sinned, because we’re sinners, we’ve dragged the world down with us, and the world is not the place it should be because of that. We were to be STEWARDS of THE EARTH… and under our direction, our sinful direction, the world isn’t going to be everything it should be. Bad things happen here. Evil things happen here… and while our God would love nothing more than to swoop down and save us all… doesn’t that take some amount of real faith? Some kind of hope and belief? But instead we push him away.
January 15th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
“A world that “fell” because of the actions of two people in a distant time (who were not even told that eating the fruit would cause the world to fall, just that it would cause them to die that same day) is no different from one with a somewhat-good-somewhat-bad god, or one with no god at all. And if Adam caused the world’s evil, does this not make him the Gnostic’s Demiurge?”
Try and think about it this way; the ‘sinful nature’ that theologians like to pull out and say that we receive from our fore-fathers is theory. Flexible doctrine. What isn’t theory is the idea that we ALL do what is considered sin by the the Bible. If God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, then the only reasonable way for him to be all of these is for him to exist outside of a stream of consciousness, outside of any real kind of time or physics… because he is God. So God KNOWS things because they HAPPEN… because He would see it all at once. So sure, Adam and Eve are the “first” to sin by our standards within time… but to God… wouldn’t we all just have sinned at the same time?
Everyone sins. Except for Jesus. That’s just what I believe, and I’m just stating it to defend Christianity from your objection. I’m not trying to impose it on you, I’m just saying.
January 15th, 2010 at 9:23 pm
Explain yourself Jason. Explain exactly in great detail and I mean every detail how you are human.I’m talking about micro-cosmically. how did your dna choose what you would be, what other choices did it have? you cant, even if you tried, you cant. because you dont know, even worldly scientist do not know all the ins-outs of life. so if you would rather believe in yourself go ahead, thats your choice.
January 16th, 2010 at 12:41 am
How am i human? How was i made? I have no idea…and no one does. But just because it is unknown does not mean i am going to believe something made up just to solve life’s answers. By believing in god all of those unknown questions produce the same answer…god. I don’t want to believe in something false and made up, just to have something to give me answers. I’d rather go through life as a mystery, instead of having false answers.
January 16th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
It makes me physically ill when christians say this is god’s will. If it is god’s will why can’t you just understand that god is a murderer, or he is powerless, or he is a criminal for knowing something is going to happen and does nothing to warn, or prevent it from happening. I think I have had all I want of this god nonsense. If you have a better explanation, please, let me hear it. Try to use your own arguments and reasoning abilities instead of endless bible verses though.
January 16th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
@ COin KY… This is my explanation, minus scripture. It’s hard for a lot of people to explain their beliefs without using the bible. It might make you mad at them… but, it’s all they can do you know? I’ve taken a lot of theology classes… so yeah, this is my explanation, minus scripture.. mostly what I know of my God.
“This world sucks, and it sucks because we’ve pushed God out of it. God doesn’t MAKE bad things happen. He doesn’t decide, you know, I’m done with those sinners in Haiti. I’m going to abuse them. NO. Our God is a God of Love, a God of Goodness, and because we’ve sinned, because we’re sinners, we’ve dragged the world down with us, and the world is not the place it should be because of that. We were to be STEWARDS of THE EARTH… and under our direction, our sinful direction, the world isn’t going to be everything it should be. Bad things happen here. Evil things happen here… and while our God would love nothing more than to swoop down and save us all… doesn’t that take some amount of real faith? Some kind of hope and belief? But instead we push him away.”
You’re absolutely right, it SHOULD make you ill when people say that this event is in God’s will. It’s not so much the fault of people though… we have a lot of Christian leaders that want everyone to believe that EVERYTHING, ABSOUTELY EVERYTHING is done according to whats God wills to be done, but that pushes the whole human freedom of choice out of the equation. We’re sinners, and God is not a God that everyday will save people from fires, earthquakes, storms, etc. Those people chose to live apart from him… and they’re choosing to live with the consequences of being outside of his grace. I’m not saying Christians are going to miraculously going to be saved from every natural disaster, because, quite frankly, even as Christians we’re still sinners and we still suck. The difference maker is, although we’re all going to receive a judgement, a death… (As a sidenote… God said to Adam and Eve… ‘You WILL die,’ not that they would die that day.) we can still have something after we die, a redemptive process. We still MUST go through judgement, we MUST recieve the consequences of our actions, but honestly… the difference is death vs. eternal death.
January 16th, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Hello Rob B,
If God had the power to stop evil, and he does not, but allows it, would you say that he is at the very least.. the 2nd cause?
Or maybe you think God does not have the power to stop evil? I hope not.
Peace…James
January 16th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
To Chuck:
I won’t answer your reply, because I ‘ve heard what you wrote my entire life having lived in the Bible Belt and gone to a baptist church for over 50 years. Just one question to you; if god knows the past, present, and future wouldn’t it make sense that he would have prevented all the misery of history? As a history teacher, I know the atrocities of the past as well as anyone. If god knew it would happen he is guilty of everything that has happened, because the concepts were in his mind first. You cannot intelligently argue against that. It is not humanities fault that we had a creator who cared nothing for his creation when in fact he could have done a beter job especially knowing what would happen in the future. We do not create ourselves. As usual, you and all the others who think as you do get back to the heaven/hell, eternal damnation/heaven business. It is a great god who concieves the horrors of this world and then follows it up with the eternal burning and torture of most of his creation.
January 16th, 2010 at 11:33 pm
COin KY:
If he scooped us up and saved us instantaneously, aren’t we still corruptible beings? What difference has been made in our lives, and what lesson have we learned if he just saved us? If you’re a history teacher, why don’t you save your students and give them all A’s regardless of what they do while in your class?
January 17th, 2010 at 1:16 am
If he scooped us up and saved us instantaneously, aren’t we still corruptible beings? What difference has been made in our lives, and what lesson have we learned if he just saved us? If you’re a history teacher, why don’t you save your students and give them all A’s regardless of what they do while in your class?
This is the strangest thing I’ve ever read! First, I did not create my students as god is said to have created humans. Had I created them, I would have not created a “devil” to tempt my perfect creation. Second, if we are corruptable, we were created corruptable by a supposedly all-powerful god. Your argument refuses to admit the truth; if god is all powerful, all knowing and knew his creation would kill, and be killed in some of the most horrific ways imaginable, how can we be responsible for just doing what he planned? After this life billions will burn in hell, and god knew it would happen in the beginning. Can’t you see that? I would rather humanity be “scooped up and saved” than to have it ravaged, killed and dismembered by the murders, wars, and horrors of history. I guess the people in Haiti are learning a lesson right now??? Thank you for writing. The more christians write, the more I can see how I have been deceived by the preachers.
January 17th, 2010 at 2:05 am
You’re just pushing everything into the light you want to view it in. I don’t blame you or anything, but you’re not trying to view it with clear unbias.
1.) God did not create a ‘devil’, he created someone with power that abused it. Genesis and Isaiah says this.s
2.) We’re created corruptible because we cannot be created with ALL KNOWLEDGE. We learn through our mistakes, whereas God knew everything previously.
3.) My argument doesn’t refuse a truth; My argument states that God gave us freedom of choice. Our choices led us down the path we’re on… where we kill each other, steal, and lie. God didn’t MAKE us do that, and it’s not like he CREATED us to do that. He created us with Potential to do Good and Bad. Evidently, we went Bad. But he gives us opportunity to be good.
4.) “After this life billions will burn in hell, and god knew it would happen in the beginning.” You’re placing God on a line of time. God is outside of time. God knows things because they ‘happen’, not because they happened. If you’re going to argue Theology, you need to do it on the terms of who you’re attacking. God exists outside of time, as he created time. Therefore there is no beginning, and no end, for Him. Only for us.
January 17th, 2010 at 2:56 am
To Chuck:
Chuck you seem to be a nice fellow and I appreciate your sincerity. Anyone named Chuck can’t be all bad (hint). I am 54 years old and have heard your arguments far too many times to count. The fact remains, if you or anyone else believe god is all knowing, there is no way around the fact that he knew what would happen in this world when he conceived it, whenever that was. If he did not know what would happen he is not all-powerful/all-knowing. Did I leave out a possibilty? If you think I did please let me know. Several years ago something happened that has all but destroyed my faith. The interesting thing is, I really am saddened that it has happened. I just don’t think god cares, if he exists at all for the reasons I have already stated. I don’t see him and he never calls or writes or emails. He hides from his creation. If he is there and he did conceive the horrors of this world and then will put his own creation in hell; I want nothing more to do with him. One final question: If you had the power to decide who would go to hell, whom would you choose. You don’t have to answer me, but I would like for you to think about it. I will tell you up front; for years I have this question of many people and I have never gotten an answer. I have only gotten bible verses. I think it is important to consider if it’s possible that god’s creation, has more compassion than god the creator…
January 17th, 2010 at 3:37 am
“One final question: If you had the power to decide who would go to hell, whom would you choose.”
That… is a good question.
And I think I make really crappy decisions, honestly.
I believe in a God that knows better than I do, by far… someone who’s independent of my bias, of all bias, and understands what we need, who understands our heart’s intent. And that’s a personal decision. I’ve weighed things too… I’ve had bad things happen to me too.. but it keeps coming back to God. The thing is, you’re almost telling me that God makes the decisions of who goes to heaven and goes to hell… when in reality that’s not what I believe. I believe in a God that, while needing to give us judgement, also gave us an opportunity to be saved through Jesus Christ. Without Jesus Christ, without some kind of way for redemption, why would I follow God? I think if I was a follower of God in the “OT Bible Times,” I’d probably suck at it.
So I don’t think he chooses who goes to hell… or who dies. I think he chooses to let US choose, by giving us an opportunity for an alternative judgement through Jesus Christ… the option B to the option A we’ve had for a long time.
We’re kind of thinking of God in totally different ways. The God I think you’ve gotten from all the pastors and christians you’ve met tells you of a God that is all-powerful, but has a strong lack of love for his children. I believe in a God that makes sense… a God that is sad for us, a God that empathizes.
I think through the freedom of decision that God has given us, we’ve made the world this way. I hear your argument though… if God KNOWS it happened, then he LETS it happen… which is almost a way of MAKING it happen. I get it, I see where you’re coming from, but I’m just thinking in a different way. Out of God’s love, he’s allowed to make our own choices, and I believe he was hoping we would choose obedience and love… and we didn’t. But he’s allowed us to come back into that decision because, as my friend says, “He wants us that bad!”
I think it boils down to who you blame… and I blame us, and I think you’re blaming God, if there is a God, or at least the Christian God that has been given to you by Preachers and Christians. It’s sad, and I get it… I went to Church for thirteen years before I became a Christian. That’s a big statement about the christian church in and of itself.
January 17th, 2010 at 5:10 am
Chuck,
The problem is choice. Its not that man has no will, the problem is that he has a will, and man has a will to sin. Mans will is not a good thing.
Salvation is God’s choice. No man world come to God but by the power found in salvation. If you choose to be saved, it is you that has the power. God is not sitting back like a helpless old man wanting people to come to him, but not having the power to do anything about it.
Just as Paul, if God wants to save someone, God hits them on the head and saves them. Paul was not looking to be saved. Paul was out killing believers, not looking to be saved.
Who gets saved? Its up to God. God could send us all to hell and still be a just God. We know this that God does not choose us because we are good. That is works based, and none of us are good. We know also that God didn’t choose us because we chose him. What would be the point of God choosing us, after we had made the choice?
God chose one nation in the OT. He didn’t chose all the nations…only one. That nation didn’t chose God, God chose them. The same is found in salvation.
God knows it happens because God decreed it from the beginning to happen. Is God in control or not?
January 17th, 2010 at 5:43 am
Go and re-read… you’re kind of putting spins on things we’ve already talked about, or you’re just misquoting. Right now… you’re hitting up a Calvinist Pre-Destination view. Really, the only thing God has pre-destined is the Church, and he’s pre-destined that for salvation… with the Church being believers and followers of Christ. Also, if you study some advanced theology… you’re going to walk into discussions on Christ “descending into Sheol, the abode of the dead..” where it is assumed he preaches to the masses… including the Non-Jews of the old testament. But that’s speculation, no hard facts. If you want a ‘victory’ sure you can have that one, there’s no point arguing that one, though… since it’s one of those “you can never really know… yet” kind of things.
Also… I don’t want to be rude… but you’re bringing up an argument that doesn’t apply to the conversation.
“The problem is choice. Its not that man has no will, the problem is that he has a will, and man has a will to sin. Mans will is not a good thing.”
Nope, Man’s will is a good thing. We’ve done bad things with it. God loves us, and because of this he’s given us free will.
“God is not sitting back like a helpless old man wanting people to come to him, but not having the power to do anything about it.”
I’m assuming you’re going to be okay if I relate to you a little scripture on this one. Jesus Christ, being a part of Trinity, is God. I’d define Christ as God coming to earth as a man, assuming a reasonable human soul (with a human nature) and laying down his life for our sins as a pure sacrifice fit to be the key to redemption. That’s not some old man sitting back doing nothing.
“Just as Paul, if God wants to save someone, God hits them on the head and saves them. Paul was not looking to be saved. Paul was out killing believers, not looking to be saved.”
You don’t think Paul didn’t have a decision? God hit Paul, but Paul could have said “Screw that.” And he didn’t.
“God chose one nation in the OT. He didn’t chose all the nations…only one. That nation didn’t chose God, God chose them. The same is found in salvation.”
God chose Israel in the Old Testament as a means to bring light in the world… they built the temple, the dwelling place of the spirit of God in the old testament. I believe that if Israel would have done well, they would have been as Christians today are supposed to be… going and sharing the love of their God with the other nations. They failed. Jesus Christ came, died, and the veil to the Holy of Holies in the Temple was torn, symbolic of the idea that Israel was no longer the chosen kingdom and people of God, and that Gentiles could come into this relationship via Jesus Christ.
“God knows it happens because God decreed it from the beginning to happen. Is God in control or not?”
God made us, gave us a will, let us make choices… and we’ve done what we’ve wanted to do. You don’t think God has control, still? Judgement is a form of control. He GIVES us the choices. If I’m a CEO, and I let my secretary do what she thinks is right for the day, am I not still in control? Is she not on my payroll? That’s a bad analogy, because it doesn’t talk about a father-child relationship or the love that God has for us, but I’m sure you’re getting sick of mushy metaphors. I don’t think God WANTS to control us, anyway. I don’t think that’s who God is. If I love someone, I don’t want complete and utter control of them. That doesn’t take away from God’s power, or who he is, in any way, shape, or form.
January 17th, 2010 at 6:02 am
Chuck how do you know all of this?
January 17th, 2010 at 6:07 am
Are you asking… what qualifies me, or do you want me to quote scripture?
I was asked to not quote scripture in my explanations… so if that’s what you’re talking about, I’m sorry. I love me some scripture, but it’s hard to use that as any evidence of point when people don’t see it as a valid source.
A lot of what I’m saying comes from combined philosophy/theology… I’m actually currently studying Religion and Philosophy as a major, and Theology as a minor. Sure, I think my views are flawed at points, but I’m just trying to state a Christian view. I’m not the smartest guy in the world, but I’d like to think like-minded people would like to be represented, you know?
January 17th, 2010 at 7:40 am
Well you answered my question.
However, the bible is just a fictional story. God is just a made up figure to connect all the dots and fill our heads with false security. Until i see some evidence of god, i will not believe in him, nor believe anything that anyone says about him. You all are just “guessing” what god is like what what he does…there is no real evidence to what your saying.
January 17th, 2010 at 9:44 am
I find these blogs a fascinating insight into human nature. I happen to be an atheist, but I am still open to alternative points of view which is why I read these and other blogs. Haiti was bound to set off ardent discussion. I find it strange that so many Christians view their God as compassionate, caring and just. I have recently re-read large parts of the Bible, and I have to say that God comes across mostly as a jealous, vindictive and unjust anthropomorphic being, who is inconsistent, and who appears to change his mind quite often. Having said that, I do believe that a lot of the teachings in the bible make sense, and accurately reflect our human nature and needs. However, I can only believe that the God of the Bible is a human creation, which may have been helpful at a time in our history when we knew so very little about the real World. That time has passed, and religions have increasingly become a millstone to progress and to human happiness. I would urge those of you with an open and inquiring mind to read a book called “God is not Great” by one of the most thoughtful atheists of our time, Christopher Hitchens. It helped me greatly in my journey to liberation from the yoke of organised religion.
Atheists are not immoral. Indeed, it could be argued that they are the most moral beings. they do good things not because of fear of divine retribution or hope for eternal salvation, but simply because they believe it is the right thing to do. I contributed funds to the Haiti disaster relief fund not because of religious belief but because we humans should look after each other when in need, and becasue I would like to think that I live in a society where other humans would help me when I was in need. I do not need religion to experience compassion. Nature is indifferent to suffering. No amount of prayer will change anything, but maybe our own actions can.
January 17th, 2010 at 11:29 am
Jason, can you prove by yourself that Hydrogen has 1 neutron and has a molecular mass of 1.00794 and can have different charges, etc., etc., etc.? Can you prove that quarks combine to form hadrons? I can’t either, but I learned this stuff from a book that contains the knowledge that was written down by people who could prove it and I have faith in it because it makes sense…much like the Holy Bible. How many people find it easy to have faith in a physics book and go their entire life without ever seeing any of the equations or facts proven? How many people never even have a physics class, yet still believe the stuff that is in a physics book?
You are right about no one knowing the full extent of God. Our impression of God is limited by our own human perception. If 100 of us were asked to taste a spoonfull of peanut butter and write down a description of it, the results would vary tremendously (it would probably range from short and simple like “nutty” to quite extensive describing scent, taste, texture, etc.). Peanut butter is fairly simple so it is pretty natural for our perceptions of something infinite like God is quite varied.
I perceive that there is only one head of the Church and he isn’t Pat Robertson nor the Pope, but our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. That is all my tiny mind and faulty existence knows about God and that is enough for me. You have to go on your own perceptions, my brother.
January 17th, 2010 at 12:20 pm
Jason,
Do you believe there are electrons? What does an electron look like? Is it round? If its round, is it s spear? What does a electron taste like? What color is an electron? Please don’t show me a picture of a radio wave that shows a path around an electron. Please don’t show me a test that says electrons exist. I want to see a electron!!!!
Now I’m sure you believe there are electrons. But I’m also sure you have never seen one. Why do you believe in electrons? Because you had faith that when you read about them, that the book that talk about them is true. That is faith Jason.
All of life is built on faith. Jason, the best proof of God is in nature, and history. There is not enough time EVER for DNA to come about by chance. NEVER.
If I told you that a watched a building taken down and a amazing thing happen…..
That when they BLOW IT UP….that all the rocks and bricks and other items of destruction began to orbit around and around the fire in the middle, and after just a while the items of destruction took on paths and stay within those paths going around the fire in the middle. And If I told you I came back the next day and those items of destruction were still flowing in those same paths around the fire in the middle, …if I told you that, would you believe me?
Is that what happens when a building blows up? Does destruction become order? When things go BANG?
That is nature in action.
History …believers believe the Bible is true. If Jesus did what the Bible says he did, there is a God, and Jesus was/is God.
When is the last time you read the Bible Jason? If you really really really want to know and you’re not just playing games, you will read the Bible, not with any book for or against the Bible. Just the Bible all alone. Then you will know.
If you really really care…if you really really want to know, read the only book that can tell you. Read the Bible.
Just read the gospel of John for starters. You can read John in one long night, or two short nights.
January 17th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
nliten. There is a difference. Science attempts to explain the real World around us, and serious scientists do not claim that physical theories which we use to describe the World cannot be questioned. Indeed the whole pursuit of science is to refine and improve our understanding of everything around us and within us. If this means that theories are subsequently proved wrong then it is acknowledged and we move on. But the theories that we use, be it the characteristcs of Hydrogen atoms, or the process of Natural Selection, make sense to us within our experience of the real World, and this is daily reinforced by things around us. A fridge appears to continue to work because the physical laws involved continue to be valid. We don’t have to understand the detailed physics to know that it works, but we can actually find out in immense detail if we wish. By contrast the core of Christian faith is based on a belief in a supernatural being for which there is no way to prove either existence or non existence. I cannot prove that there is no God, any more than you can prove that there is a God. Fact. All the evidence around me, whether it be the Bible, the physical World I experience, or the philosophical discussions I read or witness, lead me to believe that there is no God, and that the concept of God is a human invention to fulfil a need we all have for hope and fulfillment, but you are entitled to your views and your belief. However, I think there is a flaw in your comparison between physics and religion. I don’t have “faith” in physics books, and physics book could not be said to “make sense” in the same way as the Bible.
Coming back to the thread topic of the Haiti disaster, I cannot think of any way that a benign God could be a part of this random act of destruction and killing. It makes no sense. The only way I can make sense of it is to think of it as a natural disaster resulting from movement in the earth’s crust (which we understand and can explain and hopefully one day will be better able to predict), and for which there is no human blame or punishment or faith testing involved.
January 17th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
Chuck ,
Who said…I WILL…I WILL….I WILL…I WILL?
What happen when Adam wanted his WILL to eat the apple over Gods WILL?
You could go on for days with Bible stories.
What did our Lord pray. Was it not…Your WILL be done?…speaking to the Father?
If we didn’t have wills, we would not sin. I pray each day that God would over take my will and make do his will.
MAKE ME A SLAVE TO YOUR WILL DEAR GOD!!
My will is evil Chuck. I wants to sin. If God does not help me, I will sin.
We should desire to SERVE the King as a slave in his Kingdom.
January 17th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Chuck ,
You said love is not control, but is having a will.
If my kids wanted to play in a busy street, would it only be love because I let them get hit by a car?
Love is not getting what you want. That is idolatry unless it is Gods will.
January 17th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Ah, a valid point, James. As you know, the entire extent of all of our knowledge (all of the atoms, quarks, photons, gamma rays, wireless data transfer, everything physical, everything invisible, and everything else) only makes up 6% to 8% of our 3 dimensional universe. The rest of our 3 dimensional universe is composed of dark energy and dark matter. So far, it has been impossible to actually scientifically prove it exists, but when observing the universe on a grand scale we see something exhibiting huge gravitational influence on everything in our 3 dimensional universe. Dark matter and dark energy exists in and around us, but we have no way to perceive it (they have been trying in underground labs for years with no success…yet). Is it really that difficult to think of this other energy and matter as a spiritual existence (I’m not claiming it is, just perceving things)? Now this is just our 3 dimensional universe that we can actually perceive. Einstein theorized there were 30+ other dimensions that we would probably never be able to perceive. It is easier for my pea brain to think of the relationship between a 2D world with a 3D one. Like if the world of Spongebob were real…they had blood, they were born, they died, etc., but could only perceive their 2 dimensions. You and I could see in 3D and could watch their universe like a huge flat piece of paper. They would never be able to perceive our full existence, but could feel us in their world from time to time. Now think about God who is infinite and exists in an infinite amount of dimensions. Oh man, sorry for all the mumbo jumbo…I think I have a headache now. Well, God bless you brother…since that probably irritates you how about if I say, “Live long and prosper.”
January 17th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
And may your God bless you too brother. I am like a moth with a candle. No matter how hard I try, I can’t stop myself flying in to argue with those who have faith, knowing that my sincere words will be burned against the flame of your God, who occupies that part of our universe that we cannot explain. I believe that one day we will be able to explain it, maybe soon. However, currently I cannot argue rationally against something which is not proveable either way. I shall now gracefully withdraw.
January 17th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
“Who gets saved? Its up to God. God could send us all to hell and still be a just God.”
I’m not sure who wrote the above quote on this thread, but it doesn’t matter. It completely describes the futility of life when one takes a literal interpretation of the bible and what god is. This has been my point all along, not just here, but for years now. There must be a difference between a “just god” and a “merciful god.” There is no mercy in this world save what humans allow each other. Petitions, orisons, prayers, mantras to god do not work unless he decides he wants to answer. Or is it just coincidence when someone thinks they get an answer? Hell awaits the majority.
If god is omniscient he knew it all, including Haiti, when he conceived this world and there is NO free will. I will leave the other explanations to those who still believe for those reasons no longer have the place in my life they once did.
January 17th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Haha… this conversation is starting to get muddled and confusing. I’m done too, said my piece… and it comes down to a yes or no, and there’s no presentation of facts that can change that. I’m available to talk, though, at zimmy_757@yahoo… I don’t want to argue, but I like when people -ask questions- about my faith, not -question- my faith, which are different things. If you’re just interested in seeing another viewpoint, shoot me an email! Would love to hear from you.
Have a Good One,
chuck
January 17th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Chuck,
When the argument gets muddled and one becomes confused, we begin to think and that is perhaps the most valuable of all things. Thanks again for your courtesy.
Chuck
January 18th, 2010 at 12:31 am
“CHRISTIANS-Why did your God make the 7.3 earthquake…” Why would you ask a human something that is not in their authority to answer? No one has any idea of all of the things of God. In fact, it seems like most people are discussing alot of stuff about God and only limiting their conversation to the physical world. Since we don’t know what God knows we have no way to answer this. Maybe Pat Robertson is right (I don’t think so) and God judged a people, on the other hand, maybe I’m right and God knows this is what had to happen to bring another Moses to this country to lead the people of Haiti out of their oppression. Maybe most (or even all) of the dead went to heaven to live in perfect love with God. What if hell is just a state of existence where we all know all of the good and bad thoughts and actions of every human that ever occupied a vessel on Earth and we all knew each others sins (my past would certainly torture me)? No one knows. The only thing I do know for sure is that I do not know, but God does.
January 18th, 2010 at 1:23 am
Hello COin KY
I wrote the statement that you quoted above. Now let me quote you..
“There must be a difference between a “just god” and a “merciful god.””
He hit the nail on the head. This is the point of the gospel of grace. Do you recall the story of the woman brought to Jesus that was caught in the act of adultery? Jesus was faced with the same thing that you just asked about. His haters felt for sure they had trapped him. If he was just and followed the law, jesus would stone the woman, but it would damage the message he had been preaching. That message was the message of mercy and forgiveness.
Pink said this about the passage….
The problem presented to Christ by His enemies was no mere local one. So far as human reason can perceive it was the profoundest moral problem which ever could or can confront God Himself. That problem was how justice and mercy could be harmonized.… How can mercy be exercised when the sword of justice bars her way? How can grace flow forth except by slighting holiness?
What was the answer? The cross.
Jesus took on death to pay the price of the law and gave forgiveness to those that believe.
I love this passage in the OT that tells us what took place there…..Psalm 85:10
“Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other” (KJV).
That is the gospel.
January 18th, 2010 at 2:01 am
There is a problem with how the gospel is interpreted though. Universal salvation is the only way god can reconcile humankind, yet this concept is accepted by very few. You appear to side with universalism???
God cannot be omnipresent and still judge mankind so harshly by condemning billions to hell. Please don’t say we put ourselves in hell. This is supposed to be our heavenly father, not Hitler, Stalin, or Mao and any comparison to that trio is far less than eternity in hell.
God knew what would happen to humanity. That is the sticking point. We can quote scripture forever, but until we can reconcile that “little” problem, there will always be doubts; at least for me.
January 18th, 2010 at 2:41 am
Coin KY,
You said…
You appear to side with universalism???
Far from it. I’m a 5 point Calvinist. I write books two columns on Calvinism. “Mountain Monergism” and the “Charleston Calvinist” found at the link below.
http://www.examiner.com/x-35125-Charleston-Calvinist-Examiner
I’m glad you understand the error of Arminianism. If God died on the cross for every man and that death paid the sin for all men, all men are going to heaven. Which as you said is universalism.
You said..
“God cannot be omnipresent and still judge mankind so harshly by condemning billions to hell. ”
Why would you say this?
You said…
“This is supposed to be our heavenly father, not Hitler, Stalin, or Mao and any comparison to that trio is far less than eternity in hell.”
God is not the “heavenly father” to all men. One must understand what the “new birth” means. Being “born again” can also read, “born from above”. The non-believer is as Christ said..”of your father the devil”. Being “Gods child” means we have been born into the family. How is one born into the family? Holy Spirit does it on his own.
You said…
Please don’t say we put ourselves in hell.
OK. Adam placed us in there when he sinned. We don’t have to sin to go to hell, we are sinners before we sin because we come from a fallen race.
Christ is the new Adam. Christ is head of the new race. Where Adam failed, Christ won over sin and death. Believers are part of the new race.
You said…
God knew what would happen to humanity. That is the sticking point.
God knew…I agree. God knew full well that Adam would eat the apple when he placed the tree in the garden. In fact he counted on it. Yet Adam was the one that was drawn by his own lust to sin. I’m not sure why you feel this is the sticking point,
You said…
We can quote scripture forever, but until we can reconcile that “little” problem, there will always be doubts; at least for me.
Just what is the “little problem”?
January 18th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
You asked:
(“God cannot be omnipresent and still judge mankind so harshly by condemning billions to hell. ”)
Why would you say this?)
I would say it because it IS the “little” problem.
You wasted your time, with me anyway, going through and answering each point; I’ve heard it many times before. Because it still boils down to one thing and one thing only: IF GOD KNEW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN FROM THE BEGINNING, WE ARE JUST FOLLOWING A SCRIPT THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN WRITTEN.
(OK. Adam placed us in there when he sinned. We don’t have to sin to go to hell, we are sinners before we sin because we come from a fallen race.)
Your words convince me even more that we are indeed a fallen race and that god knew full well we would fail; but insist on blaming Adam for god flawed creation.
Now, what is my response to all of this? I believe there is a god but I believe he set things in motion and stood aside. It is the only logical conclusion unless one believes there is no god.
The arguments must be logical not mythical as in the bible. If god created this wonder called the universe, he must be more than a old, jealous, wrathful entity just waiting to get revenge, fill up hell, ad nauseum, etc. etc. while all the while allowing the atrocities he conceived from the beginning.
Why can’t you at least consider this one major point; what did god know and when did he know it???
January 18th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
(God knew…I agree. God knew full well that Adam would eat the apple when he placed the tree in the garden. In fact he counted on it. Yet Adam was the one that was drawn by his own lust to sin. I’m not sure why you feel this is the sticking point,)
James, With so many things to look at on your post I failed to comment on the most important. The reason it is the “sticking point” is because of everything I wrote in the previous post. Christians cannot, or will not, understand that if god KNEW before hand, as you conclude he did, he may be the most horrific criminal we will ever know for he could have stopped the crimes committed by humanity, yet stood by and did nothing. We put people in prison for knowing something is going to happen, and then taking no action to stop it.
You have your faith and I am happy for you. I once had mine, bit no longer do. For now, I have replaced faith with questioning, and trying to understand the problems of faith vs reason. Good luck to you!!!
January 18th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
COin KY,
I wanted to get a quick note to you. Please stay with me on this, I will address all that you asked about. I’m not saying you will agree, but I will answer it.
As it turns out I have been writing a 4 parter on Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility which I feel will help our understand here. I want to share that with you later.
Today I need to pump out a few lines for some newspapers or they will be mad at me. I’ll try to get back tonight with you, or 1st thing in the a.m.
Before I go, I’m still not following you on this…
“God cannot be omnipresent and still judge mankind so harshly by condemning billions to hell”
What part do you feel is in error?
1) God is not in all time frames?
2) God can not judge?
Peace..james
BTW…if KY means state…i’m in WV
January 18th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
James,
January 18th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
James, Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your civilty too. Over the last few years I have been riddled with christian bullets for just asking questions.
I’m not sure I can make my thoughts any clearer. If god knew what would happen from whenever he conceived the notion of mankind, earth, etc. he already knew the outcome before it happened. If you believe this, you believe as I do. It is logical and based on the bible’s adherence to the omniscient god. However, it is not based on the bible’s writings that somehow man is responsible for his own creation and all the shortcomings associated with it. It is impossible to have free will when the outcome is already determined, i.e. biblical prophecy.
I am indeed from KY. With that in mind, please know I don’t profess to everything, in fact I realize how little I know every day when I go in to teach 11th grade students as I have done for many years.
I do know how to ask questions and that is all I am doing. If you can reconcile an all knowing god with a god who insists we each have free will, I would call our conversation a complete success.
January 18th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
COin KY Says: I have been riddled with christian bullets for just asking questions.
A very sad indictment indeed.
January 18th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
That really is. Whenever I’ve gotten into discussions like this… I always try as hard as I can to be civil and nicey-nice… cause I’d like to receive the same… but often I feel attacked for my beliefs, as do atheists, I’m sure, and… well, the bullets fly.
let’s just start hoping for a difference.
January 19th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
Hello COin KY
This was my misunderstanding. I should have picked up that the wrong “omni”word was used once, but copied and pasted a few times.
(“God cannot be omnipresent and still judge mankind so harshly by condemning billions to hell. ”)
Why would you say this?)
I understand your point.
Before I address this I should make one thing clear from my point of view. I’m not in delusions that I will change your mind on anything from these post. You are asking for reason. I can give you reason, but you will not have faith based on reason. You need to know this, because you keep saying this over and over and I feel maybe this is why you are asking. Faith is not from reason. Reason backs the faith you hold.
I say this from debating for years, and also from the logic of belief itself and how we build upon our belief to support position. We do this because we feel we are right, and we are asking others to prove us wrong. All of us do this.
Many feel they want proof before they believe. The fact is, it does not work that way across the board no matter what your position. If I happen to satisfy your answer, you will only have another question, because your belief as it stands now, is not that of the God of the Bible, but your questions come as a defence of your own position. And so it will ever be till you change what you believe in and base life on.
To help support what I just said, you said you use to believe the Bible. Now you say, you are not sure. The only reason for this must be traced to something that you feel is true which does not line up with the Bible. This new truth, whatever it is, has power over the Bible as you see it. Therefore the Bible must be reasoned around the new truth you have found. If however, you believe the Bible as THE TRUTH the new truth you found would be reasoned around the Bible.
Having said that, If you believe, it will be on your own as God works on your heart. Neither my words, nor any human words will change you. Some believers have embraced the idea that they can talk a person into faith. That will never happen. This may be why you have found…“I have been riddled with Christian bullets for years”.
Why do I post? I post not to change you, but in answering we believers build others faith and our own. Others will still read what you and I are talking about here on this blog. Even some that have said they have left the blog, will return and read.
If you want to know, it will come down to this. Ask God. You are seeking the truth of God, (you say you are only asking). The only place you will find God is in Gods Word. God has the written word and the created word..nature that speaks of God. The created word will not give you God of the Bible. Only the Bible will answer this for you.
I find that most skeptics do not take the time to seek. I hope you are not like that. I’m not asking if you read the Bible way back when..
You say you are asking NOW. Well, are you reading the Bible while you ask? That is where you will know.
I will follow this post with a number of post as long as the webmaster don’t stop us from the long post coming. ?
Peace…James
January 19th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
No worries James, post away. Fascinating stuff and argued in a lovely manner.
January 19th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
Back in a few to add some more notes. The coffee house is calling my name at the moment.
Peace…James
January 19th, 2010 at 4:10 pm
T.F Crawford said..
“Thus much, indeed, must in candour be admitted, that we are unable to comprehend how an action that was certainly known to God before it was done should, not-withstanding, be free in the performance of it. But then our inability to comprehend how a thing should come to be, is no sufficient ground for affirming that it cannot be. In the works and ways of God, in the operations of our own minds, and in the processes of our own bodies, there are many things which we know to be actually taking place, without being able fully to account for them, or to reconcile them with other things of reality of which we are equally well assured. We have no cause to wonder, then, that this should be the case with the divine foreknowledge of human actions on the one hand, and the free agency of man in the performance of them on the other.” Page 143 chapter 10 “the battle for gospel preaching..Spurgeon V Hyper-Calvinism”
To offer my insight and not for full understanding, is why I post.
This will follow in the next few post.
January 19th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
I want to add, that much of what will be said in these post, covers elements we have not talked about. I post it anyway because I’m to lazy to retype it for the blog alone.
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Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility – part 1
This subject is to address an issue that arises in all minds that have studied theology, that being, what is man’s role in the state he finds himself, if indeed God is sovereign in salvation. It is this question that most people studying the doctrines of grace will struggle with on some level.
I recognize and therefore admit that this is no easy assignment. All theological systems have difficult issues that are hard to express in light of the truth from that given system. Yet it would be unwise to change, indeed we cannot replace the truth because of our finite knowledge.
Most will come to this struggle because of an antinomic understanding that seems to appear when God’s sovereignty and human responsibility is laid side by side. I word it this way because an antinomy is defined as.. “a contradiction between conclusions which seem equally logical, reasonable, or necessary”…but I would better say that this struggle comes from ..“an appearance of contradiction.”
In other words it is not a real contradiction, though it looks like one.
When taking a theology class, one of the first essential aspects you will be taught is that there are no real contradictions. Theology deals with God, who has the right and power to govern all of life and thought. In a contradiction, one side is true and one is not, because there is only one truth. If we face a contradiction between another man, it stands to reason that one of us or both of us is wrong. There is no way that both can be right.
In his book on Systematic Theology, Vincent Cheung said…
Scientists and unbelievers may wallow in contradictions, but Christians must not tolerate them. Rather than abandoning the unity of Scripture or the law of noncontradiction as a
“defense” against those who accuse biblical doctrines of being contradictory, we must affirm and demonstrate the coherence of these doctrines. On the other hand, Christians
should expose the incoherence of non-Christian beliefs, and challenge their adherents to abandon them.
I would go on to say that it’s not correct to say, as some theologians have said, that God’s sovereignty and human responsibility is a matter of a greater paradox. It is not a paradox we are dealing with, for a paradox is a figure of speech, a play on words for the intent of displaying a contradiction. It is a form of statement that seems to unite two opposite ideas, or to deny something by the very terms in which it is asserted.
Now it is true that many truths about the Christian life can be expressed as paradoxical. Paul states various paradoxes of his own Christian experience:
“sorrowful, yet always rejoicing… having nothing, and yet possessing all things” – 2 Cor. 6:10
“when I am weak, then am I strong” – 2 Cor. 12:10.
The point of a paradox, however, is that what creates the appearance of contradiction is not the facts, but the words. The contradiction is verbal, but not real. A little thought shows how it can be eliminated and the same idea expressed in non-paradoxical form.
What we see in Scripture on this issue is not paradoxical, because what we read is not just a play on words, but true and real. Divine sovereignty and human responsibility are both true and both very clear in Scripture. Still, there is no contradiction, but rather our lack of full understanding.
But this is not to say that Scripture has nothing to offer on the subject. Many have found this appearance of contradiction and stopped their search for scriptural understanding, being content to say it is but a mystery left to God. However, God has given us more insight on this issue than some may think. Scripture is full of wisdom from which we can gleam insight.
I want to first talk about just how great God’s sovereignty is. All believers hold to God’s sovereignty to some level. Although Calvinism is the one that claims the doctrines of sovereignty grace, even an Arminian agrees that God is in control. But not all see God controlling human salvation and this idea is what we want to get to.
But before we get there, I feel it is helpful to see just how sovereign God is. I would say He is sovereign beyond salvation and even into the realm of sin. God’s sovereignty over sin must be understood in order to give insight into human responsibility.
There are many passages to look at but none better than Colossians 1. In verse 9 of Colossians 1 Paul prays that his readers would be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and understanding.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Beginning in verse 14, Paul begins a list of truths he wants to reminds his readers of about their great God.
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
There are many truths to pull from this, but I want to just look at one verse here that addresses our subject. Verse 16 says all things were created by Him (Jesus Christ) and then goes on to give a list that covers all things.
Notice the words “ thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers.” Now does this include all thrones and dominions? Yes, these thrones and dominions include all thrones and dominions including evil supernatural powers.
Chapter 2 verse 15 says….
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Paul tells us that Jesus “triumphed” over the evil powers on the cross. The same wording found in both of these passages of the book of Colossians is also found in Ephesians 6.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
It is easy to see that all things were created by Christ going by Scripture. No Christian would deny this truth. Even evil you ask? Yes even evil. But please understand, they were not created evil, but allowed to become evil under Christ’s reign. Jude 6 tells us that these evil principalities did not keep their first estate, or the estate in which they were created, but left their own habitation following their own wills of sin. Evil is the rejection of God’s will.
Notice also that verse 16 says that these things were not just created by Christ, but “for” Christ. They exist for Christ. If there were no meaning in evil, God would not allow it to exist. Christ knew before evil came that evil would come. In Christ’s wisdom he uses evil to bring about glory and even salvation of man. So when Scripture says that all things were made by him and for him, it also means he knew that some of these things that were created good, would become evil and would play a role to bring salvation to man and glory to God.
I think it is important to know this when studying this hard subject. How big is our God anyway? I say Scripture tells us God is greater than any thing that can come our way. He rules over all things even evil. And when we face evil we know that God is in full control.
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more to come……
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I know that this line of thinking will not answer you fully. We will need to address “why does God allow suffering?”. We will get there I believe, because I read this in your statements and I feel this is not so “little” problem. Hang in there while we address this first problem and then we can talk about suffering
Peace…James
January 19th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility – part 2
Jim Hale
This part based a lot on Arthur Pinks book “Gods Sovereignty”.
In the book of Job Satan needed to ask God to trouble the righteous man and bring evil into his life before Satan could do anything. Satan could not touch Job till God removed his protective hedge from around Job. That hedge is around all believers. But God removes it from all of us at times allowing Satan to bring evil upon us. Could God stop Satan? We would all have to say yes he could stop him. In fact most of the time he does stop him. But it is also clear that God allows Satan to bring evil into out lives at other times.
It would be in fair to say that God does this only in times of judgement. Remember Job was a “just man”, and yet God allowed evil to come up on him. There are times when each of us face evil, when there is no reason that we know of to face it.
Why does God remove the hedge? Well, this is what Job asked God. Please read what Alvin Plantinga said about God’s answer to Job:
Job complains that God has no good reason for permitting the evil that befalls him. He believes that God doesn’t have a good reason because he, Job, can’t imagine what that reason might be. In reply, God does not tell him what the reason is; instead, he attacks Job’s unthinking assumption that if he can’t imagine what reason God might have, then probably God doesn’t have a reason at all. And God attacks this assumption by pointing out that Job’s knowledge is limited along these lines. No doubt he can’t think what God’s reason might be; but nothing of interest follows from this: in particular it doesn’t follow that probably God doesn’t have a reason. ‘All right, Job, if you’re so smart, if you know so much, tell me about it! Tell me how the universe was created; tell me about the sons of God who shouted with joy upon its creation! No doubt you were there!’ And Job sees the point: ‘…I have spoken of great things which I have not understood, things too wonderful for me to know’ (Ch. 42 vs. 3).
The hedge is removed for reasons known only to God. Many more stories could be pulled from scripture to support Gods control over evil. While God never forced any one to sin, God used many a mans sinful heart to bring about his plan.
Did God know Adam would pick the forbidden fruit? Indeed he did know and he set the tree in the garden counting on it. It was not God that caused Adam to sin, but rather Adams own will to be as God that caused sin. In other words it was Adams lust for power that caused Adam to sin. God knew that Pharaoh and Judas would sin too and again used their sin to bring about his glory.
Now in view of the Calvinistic doctrine of the total inability of man, many will claim that this view makes God unjust. Pelagian’s cry from years ago still is heard today. “If I ought, I can”. This little saying means if God says I ought to do something, than I have the ability to obey.
Often times the Calvinist reply is a simply quote of Romans 9: 21-22
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Now while this does indeed answer the Pelagian, it does not tell us all that is found in Scripture.
We need to know whither or not God works upon mans will, there by overruling his will to preform as he desires. If we were to find such things in scripture, there would be no way any could deny that God at the very least will at times controls man in this fashion.
It would seem that if God used His power and cause a direct influence on men their freedom would be interfered with. It would appear that if God did anything than warn and invite men their responsibility would be infringed upon. Must God stay away from coercing man, and only compel him, in order not reduce man to a machine? This seems to be good philosophy, and based upon sound reasoning and it has been almost universally accepted as an axiom in ethics. However, it is refuted by Scripture.
Genesis 20:6?”And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against Me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.”
It is argued, that God must not interfere with man’s liberty, that he must not coerce him, or man becomes a robot. But the above scripture proves, that it is not impossible for God to exert His power upon man without destroying his responsibility. This case shows God did exert His power, restrict man’s freedom, and prevent him from doing what he set out to do.
If God could “withhold” Abimelech from sinning against Him, then why was He unable to do the same with Adam? He could have, right? Then why did God not withhold Adam? Why did God not “withhold” Satan from falling? or, Why did God not “withhold” Osama Bin Laden from the events of 9/11?
The usual reply is, God could not without interfering with man’s “freedom” and reducing him to a machine. The case of Abimelech proves other wise. Then is God the Author of Sin?
Pink replies…”What is meant by “Author”?”
Plainly it is God’s will that sin at times goes forward, and at other times God stops it.
Another illustration is seen in the history of Balaam. Balak the Moabite sent for this heathen prophet to “curse” Israel. But Divine power “withheld” him.
Numbers 22:38
“And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say anything? the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak”
And Balak said..,
Numbers 23:12, 20
“He answered and said, Must I not take heed to speak that which the Lord hath put in my mouth? . . . Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and He hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it”.
Does these verses show us God’s power, and Balaam’s powerlessness? Yes it does. Man’s will was frustrated, and God’s will performed. But was Balaam’s “freedom” or responsibility destroyed? In no way.
One more illustration:
2 Chron. 17:10
“And the fear of the Lord fell upon all the kingdoms of the lands that were round about Judah, so that they made no war against Jehoshaphat”
Had not the “fear of the Lord” fallen upon these kingdoms, they would have made war upon Judah. God’s restraining power alone prevented them. Had their own will been allowed to act, “war” would have been the consequence. We see that Scripture teaches that God “withholds” nations as well as individuals, and that when it pleaseth Him to do so He interposes and prevents war.
The question for our consideration is, how is it possible for God to “withhold” men from sinning and yet not to interfere with their liberty and responsibility? A question which so many say is incapable of solution in our present finite condition.
What is “freedom” I mean what is real moral freedom? I say real moral freedom is being delivered from the bondage of sin.
In the above instances God “withheld” Abimelech, Balaam, and the heathen kingdoms from sinning, and therefore we affirm that He did not in anywise interfere with their real freedom. The nearer a soul comes to sinlessness, the nearer he comes to God’s holiness. Scripture tells us that God “cannot lie,” and that He “cannot be tempted,” but is He any the less free because He does not do lie and cannot be tempted? Surely not. Then we must agree that the more man is raised up to God, and the more he is “withheld” from sinning, the greater is his real freedom!
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This understanding of sin will help in our understanding of evil, when we get to talking about it.
January 19th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
So far not much to help us…I understand. but maybe a background for what is coming up.
This up coming part 3 will help, or at least i feel it will.
But 1st I have a meeting the Doc. I’ll be back in about 2 hours.
Peace…james
January 19th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Going in to this next part I want to admit once again that no one knows how this works. I’m not such a fool as to think I have it down, but only offer this model as one means in which God can make both truths happen. If it works in this model, it means only that man can put a logical reason to a system that brings to the two together.
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Romans 9:15-17
•15 For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
•16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
•17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
How can a man be held responsible to receive Christ, when God has not chosen to open his eyes to the truth of the gospel?
In the first place, no one knows for certain, nor can he know apart from believing that God has not chosen to show mercy upon your soul. This belongs to the hidden counsels of God. God’s secret will man does not know. God’s revealed will (in the Word) is the standard of human responsibility and God’s revealed will is plain. Each sinner is told to repent from their sin.
When a sinner hears the Gospel he is also commanded to believe. All who do truly repent and believe are saved. So, every sinner is responsible to repent and believe.
In the second place, it is the duty of every sinner to search the Scripture’s which “are able to make wise unto salvation.” It is the sinner’s “duty” because the Son of God has commanded him to search the Scriptures. If he searches them with a heart knowing he needs to change and a desire to know God, he then puts himself where God meets with sinners.
A Puritan, wrote these words…
•”I cannot say to every one that ploweth, infallibly, that he shall have a good crop; but this I can say to him, It is God’s use to bless the diligent and provident. I cannot say to everyone that desireth posterity, Marry, and you shall have children; I cannot say infallibly to him that goeth forth to battle for his country’s good that he shall have victory and success; but I can say, as Joab, (1 Chron. 19:13) ‘Be of good courage, and let us behave ourselves valiantly for our people and the cities of our God, and let the Lord do what is good in His sight’. I cannot say infallibly you shall have grace; but I can say to everyone, Let him use the means, and leave the success of his labor and his own salvation to the will and good pleasure of God. I cannot say this infallibly, for there is no obligation upon God. And still this work is made the fruit of God’s will and mere arbitrary dispensation—‘Of His own will begat He us by the Word of Truth’ (James 1:18). Let us do what God hath commanded, and let God do what He will. And I need not say so; for the whole world in all their actings are and should be guided by this principle. Let us do our duty, and refer the success to God, Whose ordinary practice it is to meet with the creature that seeketh after Him; yea, He is with us already; this earnest importunity in the use of means proceeding from the earnest impression of His grace. And, therefore, since He is beforehand with us, and hath not showed any backwardness to our good, we have no reason to despair of His goodness and mercy, but rather to hope for the best”
Now I would like to give a word picture of how these two elements can work together. Please don’t get me wrong here. These parallel truths that seem to run like a railroad track side by side, but never meeting, makes it hard to be dogmatic. But I believe God gives us some understanding in the Bible.
I would call this “God’s arena of play.”
Very short, and we can talk on this later.
God sets the parameters of the arena. God places the cast in the arena. God places the elements of decision in the arena. God chooses whom, if any, he will impose his divine intervention upon, and man chooses.
Even though I use this next illustration with caution, I go forward because it helps us greatly to understand this arena.
Imagine if you will, a large box of laboratory mice. The box has very high sides on it. There are no doors on the box that would allow the mice to walk out. The box is made of thick steel, making it impossible for the mice to eat through.
The mice are free to roam about the box at will. They, however, are unable on their own, unable to remove themselves from that box. This box is the state in which man finds himself. The mice are mankind.
These mice cannot live apart from the food and water you place in the box, just as man could not live apart from the grace God gives to all men. The grace of rain and food to eat is but a few things he gives.
If you were to turn this box into a maze, and allow the mice to roam freely in the maze, it is the mice making the choice which way to turn. But the mice are bound by the maze. So the mice do not have full freedom, even though the mice have no clue of this, being in their own little world.
You could even direct the mice to go any way you wanted them to go and still have them make the choice. Let’s say that the maze had an intersection that had four outlets. If you were to close off three of those outlets the mice would not even be aware of the other choices behind the doors and think that the only choice is to follow the lone path you had left open for them. Again, it would be the mice’s choice, but you intervened on his will.
Although I’m sure it’s much more complex, this picture of an arena is found in Scripture. One of the best stories showing this is the story of Joseph.
Joseph’s evil brothers, with evil intent, who were not attuned to God nor interested in His guidance, made a masterful plan to kill Joseph and hide their culpability. The Bible leaves no room for speculation on their intent:
(Gen. 37:18-20)…
•18 And when they saw him afar off, even before he came near unto them, they conspired against him to slay him.
•19 And they said one to another, Behold, this dreamer cometh.
•20 Come now, therefore, and let us slay him, and cast him into some pit, and we will say, Some evil beast hath devoured him: and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
Although the brothers had every intention of killing Joseph, God did not allow it.
First, God uses Reuben to restrain them. “Let’s not kill him,” Rueben suggests. “Let’s not shed any blood. Let’s just throw him in this pit out in the wilderness instead.”
Who do you think placed this thought in Reuben’s mind? I say it was God. This is God entering yet another choice into the arena. God knew the heart of Reuben, and knew what choice he would make if that choice was before him. God placed in the arena an idea. The idea was placed inside Rueben’s head. Rueben made the choice to share it with others. Reuben was guilty of hating his brother and placing him in the pit, but at the same time God spared Joseph.
But the story gets better. God sends something else into the arena. The brothers, having thrown Joseph into the pit, sat down to eat a meal and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming their way. Now the brothers had another choice. Only then did the brothers decide not to kill Joseph.
Judah, thinking this whole thing through, said to his brothers:
•Gen. 37:26-27
•“What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood? Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.
Here we see God limiting choices and making new choices to the brothers by imposing himself on them. It was God that sent the Ishmeelites into the arena. God knew the hearts of the brothers. He knew they would love to make money off this deal if they could. So God guides evil men in what he wants them to do. They were still guilty of sin, for their choices were evil. But God also used them and their evil to get Joseph to a place where he wanted him. God wanted Joseph in Egypt.
Now just in case you think I’m just reading all of this into the text, you need to look at the end of the story. Skip to Genesis 45-4 and you will read these amazing words…
•4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Yes, they sold their brother. It was their choice. But read on,
•5 Now, therefore, be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Yet, at the same time, we are told God was behind it. The verse says…God sent me.
This same idea is repeated again in verse 8:
• 8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and He hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
We see God directing the arena, in full control, and man still left with choices of responsibility.
January 19th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
I have one more part, but it really has nothing to do with the subject. I can post it if you want, but I’ll leave it for now.
Lets stay it like this….
As to suffering. Why does God allow it?
I think to focus only on one event will limit our understanding of the big picture. Suffering is hard to understand when we just see the pain of folks going through it at that moment. When we see the big picture it becomes easier to understand. I’m not saying its easier to except.
One reason…
What makes a picture a good picture?
If I have a B&W picture that has all highlights, is it a good picture?
If I have a B&W picture that has all shadows, is that a good picture?
I think you will agree that a good picture has a full 256 level gray scale from black shadows all the way to white highlights. We would never know white is good apart from the black.
We would have no way to know good is good if bad was not around. no?
Another thing to think about…
We all will die. A fact we all know.
When is the best time to die?
Lets say everyone lived to the age of 100. At 100 everyone drops dead. You can’t take your life before 100. You can’t live one day past 100. 100 years to the day…that’s it. All have the same amount of time on earth..and then you die.
Is that a better death? Do you not see problems there too?
Would man still try and find ways to live longer? Yes…but it will never happen. They all die at 100.
Will people that are left behind still cry over a lost one? Yes.
Would people say…”Why would a loving God do this to us?” Yes
What happens in the last month when you know you have 15 days…10 days…..1 day….one hour..
Is that better?
A long life for all, does not make death better. It does not mean we will not suffer.
So….
If life is left to God, why do some leave this world in just a few short years, while others live long lives?
Well…which is better? That depends on how you view it. I’ll not go into this..
And in death itself….
Why do some go sudden, while others remain in pain for years?
Which is better?
Could it be that God knows when it is better to take a persons life? If we would have it our way, we would never let them go would we? One more year God….just one more year.
The next year comes…is death now better a year later? Not really.
But we know all people die. When would be the best time?
My wife lost both her mother and father within 3 months. Her mother was in the hospital for a long time. When she was told she had cancer, we were all in shock. How could this be? We were not ready to let her go. We would find the best doctors. We will beat this thing.
I did not see my wife for a long time. She spent all of her time at her office or at her mothers bed side. We only talked on the phone while was was going on.
By the end, we were ready. I’m not saying it was super easy to she her go. Death was still hard. But she was ready to go. She said her last words to us, and we to her. But she just wanyed to die. She was wore out. We all were wore out. God gave us that long time to get ready for her passing. We cried as all would do. Death was still hard.
Her dad went quick. Why? I’m not sure. Maybe we as a family could not take another long death. Maybe her dad could not take the pain as well as her mother.
I mean death is hard. It’s always hard.
How do we know when it is the best time to die? I can’t make that call. I must trust that God knows best.
January 19th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
Hello again.
Thanks to both of you for your time in writing with so much articulation and thought. I have been with 115 11th grade history students today so it is good to read something where I can rise above the mediocrity.
It’s been fun, but it’s time to move on now.
Sincerely,
CO IN KY
January 20th, 2010 at 12:09 am
There is a very well written and thoughtful post here that questions the way Atheists should view the Haiti earthquake .
http://bruisefalling.blogspot.com/2010/01/blaming-god-for-haiti.html
January 20th, 2010 at 4:11 am
The Haitian Earthquake is not God’s Judgment, but rather man’s stupidity. Man chose to build unreinforced or poorly engineered structures in an area prone to earthquakes. Man chose to impoverish his fellow humans for the sake of a few wealthy rulers. Man’s church chose to ignore the Gospels and close it’s eyes to decades of suffering. Man’s racism doomed a nation to poverty. Man’s ruthless exploitation created a history of slavery, and its crippling aftermath. Man’ rape of the forests created landslides which wiped out whole villages. The Creator of 100 billion galaxies, each with countless stars cannot be so mean spirited or capricious to cause this calamity. We dumb apes without tails however are another story.
January 20th, 2010 at 9:48 am
James Hale – You argue with passion and an impressive list of biblical sources. As always, this blog full of thought provoking and sincere posts which I enjot reading. Thank you.
If I could offer this feedback on these specific posts, which I hope will be of use…
To take at random one of many examples, your quote and explanation:
2 Chron. 17:10
“And the fear of the Lord fell upon all the kingdoms of the lands that were round about Judah, so that they made no war against Jehoshaphat”
Had not the “fear of the Lord” fallen upon these kingdoms, they would have made war upon Judah. God’s restraining power alone prevented them. Had their own will been allowed to act, “war” would have been the consequence. We see that Scripture teaches that God “withholds” nations as well as individuals, and that when it pleaseth Him to do so He interposes and prevents war.
…”
What evidence is there of “God’s restraining power” except in the minds of those who afterwards sought to find a reason for something they did not understand, or at which they marvelled?
These writings are from a time and place when man felt that detructive natural phenoma and extreme human behaviour were all caused by God or gods, because they could not explain them in any other way that made sense to them. We now know in great detail exactly why these events happen, and we undrestand why man has a propensity to wage war for very earthly and obvious reasons, and why man also has the capacity for immense compassion and altruism – all without the need for an external influence or creator.
If your reader starts from the position of being an unbeliever or agnostic, then I have to say that I don’t think your explanations will change his mind, because you don’t make a convincing case for the very existence of God in the first place. I find myself wondering to which audience your posts are addressed. Are you preaching to the already converted?
January 20th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Hello Jim,
YOU SAID..
((If your reader starts from the position of being an unbeliever or agnostic, then I have to say that I don’t think your explanations will change his mind, because you don’t make a convincing case for the very existence of God in the first place.))
Nor was i trying to argue there is a God. If you would like to take that subject up, let me know.
I was however addressing this post…
(((COin KY Says:
There is a problem with how the gospel is interpreted though. Universal salvation is the only way god can reconcile humankind, yet this concept is accepted by very few. You appear to side with universalism???
God cannot be omnipresent and still judge mankind so harshly by condemning billions to hell. Please don’t say we put ourselves in hell. This is supposed to be our heavenly father, not Hitler, Stalin, or Mao and any comparison to that trio is far less than eternity in hell.
God knew what would happen to humanity. That is the sticking point. We can quote scripture forever, but until we can reconcile that “little” problem, there will always be doubts; at least for me.)))
I believe I answered this. Maybe you do not agree
YOU SAID,,
((What evidence is there of “God’s restraining power” except in the minds of those who afterwards sought to find a reason for something they did not understand, or at which they marvelled?))
The evidence is the Bible. It’s really kind of easy. If its true, and I believe it is, then we have a story to believe. If on the other hand, you don’t believe the Bible, you can make claims like this…
(((These writings are from a time and place when man felt that detructive natural phenoma and extreme human behaviour were all caused by God or gods, because they could not explain them in any other way that made sense to them.)))
That statement is based on faith. You have no one to ask if that is their “thinking”. I believe they are dead now. So you BELIEVE or have FAITH that they made it up because they could not explain it. That is FAITH jim, that your statement is true.
It comes down to this Jim. I have FAITH in a book called the Bible. You have FAITH in other things. Therefore I believe in God. Based on your statements your faith will force the Bible to answer to your “HIGHER TRUTH” whatever that may be. Maybe other books, maybe other reports. Maybe its a show you wacthed on TV. I have no idea. Maybe its a GUT felling you have. You will need to share what drives you.
But in the end, we can trace it back to a “base faith” that you build you life around.
YOU SAID…
(((I find myself wondering to which audience your posts are addressed.)))
I have addressed this before. I’ll never change anyone in a “debate” if you want to call it that. Non-believers ask for reasons to believe. I can give them reason, but that reason will not change them. They will move to another subject.
When that reason is addressed they only move to something else. I have no hopes of changing your mind, nor any one that does not believe. I’ll answer all the logic as to WHY believers believe and show a more logical model to believe.
Now please don’t think the Bible is the only reason. The Bible is the base, but we go from there to prove our faith based on the Bible. But just as I have a base, you too have a base. We take that base faith and build a system on it. Faith comes first. Reason follows. Both with you and me.
YOU SAID…
(((Are you preaching to the already converted?)))
First..YES. I said this above. And.. the second thing, is to answer what is asked to a believer.
Peace …..James.
January 20th, 2010 at 9:59 pm
Thank you for that thoughtful reply James.
I think I must take you up on one point: You state that you have FAITH in the Bible ,and I have FAITH in other things. Actually no.
If I understand you correctly, when you talk about your faith in the Bible, whilst you have no rational way to prove it, yet you do honestly believe that the Bible is God’s word, because you have made that leap of faith.
I, however, do NOT have faith in anything else in a comparable way. In order to believe something I need at least a scrap of real evidence, however flimsy.
You may counter that I cannot prove, (for instance,) that the dinosaurs ever existed — because I have never seen one.
That may be so, but I can reasonably infer that it is probable that they did exist, because of the wide range of available data and secondary evidence that I have witnessed, which together indicate that it is more likely that they existed than that they did not.
So, as a working hypothesis I will assume that they did exist – but if a new discovery is made that turns this hypothesis on it’s head, then I will re-evaluate my view.
By contrast, I can not think of any actual evidence for the existence of God which is not at best the equivalent of heresay. It seems to me that the only way to accept this God is to make a blind leap of faith. That goes against all that I know and all that I have been taught. To be honest, I think this amazing and wonderful World in which we live is sufficiently awe inspiring and fulfilling without a God.
The more we discover, the more we realise we do not know, but if the past is anythinbg to go by, it seems highly probable we will witness further amazing discoveries in future which will bring us that bit closer to our goal of complete understanding of a Universe without God.
I’ve probably said too much. It’s hard to know when to stop! I don’t think we are ever going to see eye to eye on this James. Let’s just agree to differ. I hope I am always open to new ideas and I do follow this blog with great interest, and I thank you.
Peace to you too. Jim.
January 21st, 2010 at 1:17 am
Hello Jim,
Thanks for your reply and for this exchange. I’m not sure how I made it to this blog, but I may not be able to come back any time soon.
I have a number of other things which keeps me from blogging. I have a blog of my own which I jam with 100 post in one day (not a joke) from things I write over a few months, and then never touch it for 6 more months. I guess I’m not much of a blogger.
I think you know that I would love to take you up on your statement..
“I, however, do NOT have faith in anything else in a comparable way.”
As I try to pull you in, I will say…Now I could be wrong, because I am wrong at times, however not so far when it has to do with this subject, but I do feel I can prove you wrong on that idea when you have the time.
Being that I may never be back, I’ll leave my email…
jimhale@mountianmonergism.com
If for any reason you cannot..I understand
Peace…James
January 21st, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Its easy to ask why did God do this why did God do that when you want nothing to do with Him in the first place.Maybe the real question should be: Why did I turn my back on Him?
January 21st, 2010 at 10:45 pm
There is no god.
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:25 pm
May I correct Mitchell’s partially jocular reference to atheists hating “God”. It’s not your god we hate. It’s what your belief in him (it? her?) does to you. It seems to suck the brains, and sometimes the humanity, out of otherwise decent, intelligent people. Pat Robertson is probably a delightful guy in private and his grandchildren adore him. But get him on the subject of his god and his brains leak out and are replaced with pure poison.
Now, you may say it’s none of my business if your brains have been sucked out by your faith and I guess you’re right. But it does concern us when people start trying to impose their brain-sucking delusions on the rest of us.
May I hasten to add that I am great friends with many believers and I acknowledge the great debt we have to faith-motivated people who are giving up their lives to places such as Haiti.
But the rise in atheism is in direct response to the rise in aggressive faith and attempts by believers to take over our societies. If we can all give each other the freedom to believe in what we want, without expecting our Governments to fall in line behind us, then we’d all get along fine.
Oh, and your god didn’t cause the earthquake. It was plate tectonics.
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:55 pm
he said, “whilst”. When you use that word in a sentence it makes it more of an important saying. Word banter is so wordy.
February 4th, 2010 at 11:53 am
howcome nobody questions Satan on the poverty of the Haitians, yet one earthquake happens, and then its ‘gods’ fault. Forget that this country was dedicated to Satan. Blame all the bad stuff on the christian god. Doesn’t mean that on paper if the country in 90% christian that they really are. Not all those who profess christianity are true christians.
February 4th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
I’ve been thinking some more about the sentence which started this comment stream.
Who exactly are these people who would say that this was “God’s fault” ? A true non-believer would surely not need to ask the question, because there is no God. The only purpose in posing the question would be to taunt Christians for cheap thrills. A very weak and silly attempt, and one which as a rational atheist myself, I would not ask.
If the question is asked by a true believer, then the answers are found in their Bible. Surely, ultimately this is a pointless question?
March 2nd, 2010 at 7:55 am
okay this is very simple God has a very perfect plan it says in 6 verses in an niv bible … pls read.
1. “Where there is no vision, the people perish.” (Proverbs 29:18)
2. “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.” (Jeremiah 29:11)
3. “Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them.” (Psalm 139:16)
4. “Since his days are determined, the number of his months is with You; You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.” (Job 14:5)
5. “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” (Romans 8:28)
6. “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:14)
guys God has a perfect plan for everything… like the timing of your heart beat or how many hair strands you have on your head sooo guys pls belive
and here are 3 more verses for beliving
# “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon.” (Matthew 6:24)
# “If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.” (John 12:26)
# Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29)
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:06 am
Like other scientifically-minded Christians, I find the idea that disasters are a response by God to sin both offensive and ridiculous. We are all witness to the fact that in our domestic lives disease and accident strike regardless of the victim’s faith or conduct.
It would be lovely if we could avoid illness or disaster by emulating Jesus as well as we are able and faithful, but it doesn’t work like that. The material world is full of hazards. Our faith helps us to respond to disasters with courage, resourcefulness and compassion. It doesn’t stop them happening.
This is all about free will. If there was a system whereby all the unrepentantly sinful Haitians were killed, all the virtuous and faithful survived – then I imagine everyone would worship God purely as a form of insurance.
As it is, the poor Haitians live in one of the poorest countries on Earth. They suffer an appalling disaster and then some loonie says the earthquake’s their fault. What a vile man Pat Robertson is!
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:22 am
Couldn’t agree with you more Sophie.
@Rhedge,
I think you have completely missed it, your perfect example of random texts, taken out of context, so are therefore pretexts. Although you use them as proof texts for your argument.
The point and plan is Christ.