Comments on: The Bishop of Croydon, the Rt Rev Nick Baines, has blamed the much-loved Christimas carols for adding to confusion over the season’s real meaning and turning Jesus into a figure as fictitious as Father Christmas. http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/ Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:32:59 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Annie http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-11376 Annie Sun, 03 Jan 2010 13:33:09 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-11376 Having been at a C of E Christingle Service on Christmas Eve and a Baptist Celebration on Christmas Morning with 2 of my grandchildren I do wonder how much they understood of the true message of Christmas either from the sentimental Victorian hymns or the modern Spurgeons dvd which perpetuated the unbiblical myth of there being 3 Kings called Caspar, Melchior and Balthazaar. Nevertheless as long as they continue to be brought up with enquiring minds and encouraged to ask lots of questions I don't think it will have done them too much harm. I certainly think that a fully human baby Jesus must have cried from cold. wet or hunger even if, being without sin, he never had a 2 year old temper tantrum. I do wish Mr Jackson hadn't tried to use CHRISTMAS to have an unecessary go at Muslims who also believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem of the Virgin Mary even if they do not recognise him as the Saviour of the World. The PC brigade, who are constantly being brought to our attention in the tabloid press, and who do not want us to celebrate Christian Festivals for fear of upsetting other religions are usually white, secular Brits, very rarely ethnic minorites or people of other Faiths. Having said that, it might impress people of other Faiths more if the indigenous Britsh population celebrated with a little less materialism and a little less drunkeness. Having been at a C of E Christingle Service on Christmas Eve and a Baptist Celebration on Christmas Morning with 2 of my grandchildren I do wonder how much they understood of the true message of Christmas either from the sentimental Victorian hymns or the modern Spurgeons dvd which perpetuated the unbiblical myth of there being 3 Kings called Caspar, Melchior and Balthazaar. Nevertheless as long as they continue to be brought up with enquiring minds and encouraged to ask lots of questions I don’t think it will have done them too much harm. I certainly think that a fully human baby Jesus must have cried from cold. wet or hunger even if, being without sin, he never had a 2 year old temper tantrum.

I do wish Mr Jackson hadn’t tried to use CHRISTMAS to have an unecessary go at Muslims who also believe that Jesus was born in Bethlehem of the Virgin Mary even if they do not recognise him as the Saviour of the World. The PC brigade, who are constantly being brought to our attention in the tabloid press, and who do not want us to celebrate Christian Festivals for fear of upsetting other religions are usually white, secular Brits, very rarely ethnic minorites or people of other Faiths. Having said that, it might impress people of other Faiths more if the indigenous Britsh population celebrated with a little less materialism and a little less drunkeness.

]]> By: Lionel Rose http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10894 Lionel Rose Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:50:23 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10894 Those who were involved in the selection of Nick Baines must have been aware of his controversial nature and what would seem to be his I am right theology. Many ordained clergy do not accept the episcopal authority of Bishops who ordain women and so A.N.Other flies in. I wonder how many priests in the Diocese of Southwark, being totally opposed to Nick Baines teachings will have the courage to refuse to accept his Episcopal presence in their parishes? I have just s few words for the errant bishop, Christmas is not about shepherds,or kings it is about God coming to identify with our humanity in the frailty of a child. If some people find the pictures surrounding the Birth of our Lord a help in holding it all together, who are you to destroy a persons deeply held faith,when you are not in a position to help them through it. Parish priests are left to pick up the shrapnel of your wounding words. I think in all fairness you should re name your book,"How to destroy the C Of E and centuries of tradition,in a few chapters. Those who were involved in the selection of Nick Baines must have been aware of his controversial nature and what would seem to be his I am right theology. Many ordained clergy do not accept the episcopal authority of Bishops who ordain women and so A.N.Other flies in. I wonder how many priests in the Diocese of Southwark, being totally opposed to Nick Baines teachings will have the courage to refuse to accept his Episcopal presence in their parishes? I have just s few words for the errant bishop, Christmas is not about shepherds,or kings it is about God coming to identify with our humanity in the frailty of a child. If some people find the pictures surrounding the Birth of our Lord a help in holding it all together, who are you to destroy a persons deeply held faith,when you are not in a position to help them through it. Parish priests are left to pick up the shrapnel of your wounding words.

I think in all fairness you should re name your book,”How to destroy the C Of E and centuries of tradition,in a few chapters.

]]> By: Andrew Parsons http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10452 Andrew Parsons Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:07:45 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10452 The infancy narratives don't feature in the earliest gospel. In St Luke and St Matthew, they have something of a mythic quality about them - it's not to say they are untrue, but they're tales which tell about royal descent and royal visitors (Old Testament kings were referred to as shepherds - it took one to spot one seems to be the idea). So getting hung up on how accurate the carols are (whether the shepherds & wise men were or were not faithful) is to miss the point. The point is that Jesus who came into the world and shared our humanity comes into the world today, and we need to be reminded of him and recognise him, and some of the Christmas tales and myths do speak powerfully about him. Yes Mrs Alexander may be manipulative, but let's not chuck this baby out with the bathwater. The infancy narratives don’t feature in the earliest gospel. In St Luke and St Matthew, they have something of a mythic quality about them – it’s not to say they are untrue, but they’re tales which tell about royal descent and royal visitors (Old Testament kings were referred to as shepherds – it took one to spot one seems to be the idea). So getting hung up on how accurate the carols are (whether the shepherds & wise men were or were not faithful) is to miss the point.
The point is that Jesus who came into the world and shared our humanity comes into the world today, and we need to be reminded of him and recognise him, and some of the Christmas tales and myths do speak powerfully about him. Yes Mrs Alexander may be manipulative, but let’s not chuck this baby out with the bathwater.

]]> By: webmaster http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10231 webmaster Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:41:39 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10231 I agree with you Mrs Mills! I agree with you Mrs Mills!

]]> By: Mrs Mills http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10230 Mrs Mills Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:39:37 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10230 Could this all have been taken a little out of context? I think the underlying message is that Bishop Nick is asking us to think, what is the real meaning of Christmas? Carols will be sung, decorations hung and presents exhanged. These our much loved Christmas rituals that will continue for years to come, I think we should just remind ourselves what's the reasons and messages behind the real Christmas story. If you are not sure, find out. A little deeper thinking at times is good for the soul surely! Could this all have been taken a little out of context? I think the underlying message is that Bishop Nick is asking us to think, what is the real meaning of Christmas? Carols will be sung, decorations hung and presents exhanged. These our much loved Christmas rituals that will continue for years to come, I think we should just remind ourselves what’s the reasons and messages behind the real Christmas story. If you are not sure, find out. A little deeper thinking at times is good for the soul surely!

]]> By: churchmouse http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10206 churchmouse Tue, 01 Dec 2009 08:32:32 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10206 Mr Stoodley -- I shall keep you in my prayers. It's bad enough that +Baines said what he did, but then you agree with him. No wonder the C of E and Christianity is in the state it is today. It seems to be so much 'better' (read 'easier') to preach about the Church of Gaia than our Saviour Jesus Christ. Most people's earliest childhood memories include singing carols, which bring so much happiness to all believers, regardless of age. And, yes, speaking from personal experience, they are an excellent way to learn the Christmas story. Mr Stoodley — I shall keep you in my prayers. It’s bad enough that +Baines said what he did, but then you agree with him.

No wonder the C of E and Christianity is in the state it is today. It seems to be so much ‘better’ (read ‘easier’) to preach about the Church of Gaia than our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Most people’s earliest childhood memories include singing carols, which bring so much happiness to all believers, regardless of age. And, yes, speaking from personal experience, they are an excellent way to learn the Christmas story.

]]> By: William Wright http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10195 William Wright Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:47:14 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10195 Perhaps the Right Rev. Nick should search his own soul to see if the lights are burning. The blame for confusion rightly rests with those of his own sorry ilk. Perhaps the Right Rev. Nick should search his own soul to see if the lights are burning. The blame for confusion rightly rests with those of his own sorry ilk.

]]> By: StumpWeasel http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10188 StumpWeasel Mon, 30 Nov 2009 19:20:19 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10188 What is wrong with these carols? I'm sure most people don't honestly think they are the gospel truth but accept them as an enjoyable part of the ritual of Christmas. Personally, I'm against the mawkish squawkings of my offspring who prate about the "Baby Jesus" as a result of their CofE school but I think they should grow up with an understanding of faith and make their own choice on this matter. Most organised religions evolve and I'm sure that some of the current practices in churches would be little understood by early christians or their (and our) medieval counterparts. Let the Christmas carols alone - surely it's about believing your Christ was born to save the world (still work to be done on this mind) and trying to be a better person and love thy neighbour. What is wrong with these carols? I’m sure most people don’t honestly think they are the gospel truth but accept them as an enjoyable part of the ritual of Christmas. Personally, I’m against the mawkish squawkings of my offspring who prate about the “Baby Jesus” as a result of their CofE school but I think they should grow up with an understanding of faith and make their own choice on this matter.

Most organised religions evolve and I’m sure that some of the current practices in churches would be little understood by early christians or their (and our) medieval counterparts. Let the Christmas carols alone – surely it’s about believing your Christ was born to save the world (still work to be done on this mind) and trying to be a better person and love thy neighbour.

]]> By: Ron Jackson http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10177 Ron Jackson Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:46:58 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10177 Nick Baines....... And now Pete Stoodley, I wont refer to these two with their 'rev' title, Why do you have to try to change these age old carols ? . What is wrong with you people ?, let people enjoy their CHRISTMAS yes, (C-H-R-I-S-T-M-A-S for the benefit of the 'dont upset the muslim brigade') You are a disgrace to the real Christians given what some of your Irish perverted colleagues have been up to. Nick Baines……. And now Pete Stoodley, I wont refer to these two with their ‘rev’ title, Why do you have to try to change these age old carols ? . What is wrong with you people ?, let people enjoy their CHRISTMAS yes, (C-H-R-I-S-T-M-A-S for the benefit of the ‘dont upset the muslim brigade’) You are a disgrace to the real Christians given what some of your Irish perverted colleagues have been up to.

]]> By: c peers http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10173 c peers Mon, 30 Nov 2009 12:15:21 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10173 Another nail in the coffin of christianity - this time by one of its own bishops. You wouldn't find catholics and moslems attacking their own faith in this manner. Another nail in the coffin of christianity – this time by one of its own bishops. You wouldn’t find catholics and moslems attacking their own faith in this manner.

]]> By: Revd Pete Stoodley http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/29/the-bishop-of-croydon-the-rt-rev-nick-baines-has-blamed-the-much-loved-christimas-carols-for-adding-to-confusion-over-the-season%e2%80%99s-real-meaning-and-turning-jesus-into-a-figure-as-fictitious/comment-page-1/#comment-10157 Revd Pete Stoodley Mon, 30 Nov 2009 08:54:51 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=9200#comment-10157 Thank you, thankyou - at last a bishop with courage to speak out what I,ve been saying for 25 years ( ask my offspring ) Thank you, thankyou – at last a bishop with courage to speak out what I,ve been saying for 25 years ( ask my offspring )

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