Comments on: Cultural Boycott within Israel – Now bigots are calling for boycotts of Messianic musicians playing within Israel http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/17/cultural-boycott-israel-bigots-calling-boycotts-messianic-musicians-playing-israel/ Sun, 14 Mar 2010 00:41:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Secular Jew http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/17/cultural-boycott-israel-bigots-calling-boycotts-messianic-musicians-playing-israel/comment-page-1/#comment-10625 Secular Jew Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:17:21 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=8667#comment-10625 Thanks Yeze for taking the time to read my comments and really listen to what I had to say. I wish the same could be said for many others (in the case of any type of controversial debate/conversation). Thanks Yeze for taking the time to read my comments and really listen to what I had to say. I wish the same could be said for many others (in the case of any type of controversial debate/conversation).

]]> By: Yeze http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/17/cultural-boycott-israel-bigots-calling-boycotts-messianic-musicians-playing-israel/comment-page-1/#comment-10623 Yeze Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:01:41 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=8667#comment-10623 Hi SJ, I think that's a totally fair point and well argued - thanks for writing this in such a way. Hi SJ, I think that’s a totally fair point and well argued – thanks for writing this in such a way.

]]> By: Secular Jew http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/17/cultural-boycott-israel-bigots-calling-boycotts-messianic-musicians-playing-israel/comment-page-1/#comment-10591 Secular Jew Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:02:50 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=8667#comment-10591 Response to Yeze: And that's fair Yeze to say that there are some bigoted people in Israel. The problem that I have is, you have to look a little deeper into the context of the situation. You have to define, was this in fact bigotry, or was it something else? I think you can take a lot of situations at face value and call it out right bigotry, but that doesn't in fact make it so. I don't honestly know whether this was out of bigotry against messianic jews or rather someone who is deeply concerned that others will be influenced by this individuals message. Of course, in Israel, unlike most of it's neighbors, this individual absolutely has a right to free speech. However, the shop owner also has the right to tell this individual to go somewhere else and certainly has the right to remove the individual from their property. As we have both agreed, there is definitely real bigotry that goes on everywhere in the world. But like I mentioned, really and truly, credit should be given where credit is due, and while many would like to pick and prod at places like Israel (or frankly any western country), this is not where the attention really should be placed. By that I don't mean, ignore bigotry that occurs in the west, I'm saying, more attention, not just by you but by many that seem to be ignoring this problem, needs to be paid to countries where bigotry is such a problem that it causes wide spread hate, brutality and even death to the victims. Places where extreme ethnic cleansing has occurred. Where people of other faiths/backgrounds are forced to live like second class citizens. Where the women, especially, are raped and children are enslaved. Israel has become the target of much attention these days by people who have examined it like a petree dish, looking for anything they can possibly use against it, even when it has done so much over the years to not only benefit itself, but many others (including Palestinians) in the process. but you know who ends up losing in the end? The people who are the targets of racial/ethnic/cultural/religious and even gender discrimination going on around the world. Israel certainly isn't perfect, and it has made some mistakes for sure, but I'll tell you what, you should do yourself a real favor and learn about the real atrocities going on right now in countries including China, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, Darfur, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Pakistan, with the Hamas government, Egypt, etc. Like I said. Give credit where credit is due, because the millions of victims in these countries need a voice and they aren't being heard. I've included a link that shows you some statistics of who exactly is being killed in mass numbers around the world, in many cases by their own people, and in many cases, based on discrimination. http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=28394 I think that it is very important to point this out. Not so that I can deflect the topic, but rather, so that people like you, who write to a mass audience, can see perhaps why when someone talks about bigotry in Israel (or anywhere in the west), you can really get a full understanding of how miniscule that problem really is in comparison to the lethal and socially accepted bigotry that goes on elsewhere. And like I had mentioned earlier, it is also just as important to reflect on a story, look at all the facts, and disseminate whether in fact what, at face value, might seem as an act of bigotry, is in fact something else. Thanks for taking the time to read this. Response to Yeze: And that’s fair Yeze to say that there are some bigoted people in Israel. The problem that I have is, you have to look a little deeper into the context of the situation. You have to define, was this in fact bigotry, or was it something else? I think you can take a lot of situations at face value and call it out right bigotry, but that doesn’t in fact make it so. I don’t honestly know whether this was out of bigotry against messianic jews or rather someone who is deeply concerned that others will be influenced by this individuals message. Of course, in Israel, unlike most of it’s neighbors, this individual absolutely has a right to free speech. However, the shop owner also has the right to tell this individual to go somewhere else and certainly has the right to remove the individual from their property.

As we have both agreed, there is definitely real bigotry that goes on everywhere in the world. But like I mentioned, really and truly, credit should be given where credit is due, and while many would like to pick and prod at places like Israel (or frankly any western country), this is not where the attention really should be placed. By that I don’t mean, ignore bigotry that occurs in the west, I’m saying, more attention, not just by you but by many that seem to be ignoring this problem, needs to be paid to countries where bigotry is such a problem that it causes wide spread hate, brutality and even death to the victims. Places where extreme ethnic cleansing has occurred. Where people of other faiths/backgrounds are forced to live like second class citizens. Where the women, especially, are raped and children are enslaved.

Israel has become the target of much attention these days by people who have examined it like a petree dish, looking for anything they can possibly use against it, even when it has done so much over the years to not only benefit itself, but many others (including Palestinians) in the process. but you know who ends up losing in the end? The people who are the targets of racial/ethnic/cultural/religious and even gender discrimination going on around the world.

Israel certainly isn’t perfect, and it has made some mistakes for sure, but I’ll tell you what, you should do yourself a real favor and learn about the real atrocities going on right now in countries including China, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, Darfur, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Pakistan, with the Hamas government, Egypt, etc. Like I said. Give credit where credit is due, because the millions of victims in these countries need a voice and they aren’t being heard.

I’ve included a link that shows you some statistics of who exactly is being killed in mass numbers around the world, in many cases by their own people, and in many cases, based on discrimination.
http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=28394

I think that it is very important to point this out. Not so that I can deflect the topic, but rather, so that people like you, who write to a mass audience, can see perhaps why when someone talks about bigotry in Israel (or anywhere in the west), you can really get a full understanding of how miniscule that problem really is in comparison to the lethal and socially accepted bigotry that goes on elsewhere. And like I had mentioned earlier, it is also just as important to reflect on a story, look at all the facts, and disseminate whether in fact what, at face value, might seem as an act of bigotry, is in fact something else.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

]]> By: Yeze http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/17/cultural-boycott-israel-bigots-calling-boycotts-messianic-musicians-playing-israel/comment-page-1/#comment-10567 Yeze Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:51:46 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=8667#comment-10567 I'm not saying all Israelis are like these three men. I'm saying bigotry is a problem within Israeli society - of course it's not just in Israeli society but in all societies, and it's no excuse for people to be antisemitic either. I’m not saying all Israelis are like these three men. I’m saying bigotry is a problem within Israeli society – of course it’s not just in Israeli society but in all societies, and it’s no excuse for people to be antisemitic either.

]]> By: Secular Jew http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/17/cultural-boycott-israel-bigots-calling-boycotts-messianic-musicians-playing-israel/comment-page-1/#comment-10564 Secular Jew Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:55:50 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=8667#comment-10564 First, let me take this as an opportunity to state that just as there are religious folk in Christianity or Islam that do/say things that seem a little nuts, that does not give people a reason to use it as an excuse to promote their personal hatred/stereotypes. Having said that, when events made by a large number of people from a particular religion continually do things that seem pretty nuts, that should most certainly be reflected on, to prevent horrific events in which religion is used as a basis (e.g. the inquisition or the attack in mumbai for example). Anyway, I do have an opinion on this event that comes from a place of understanding. On the one hand, I do recognize why there is a concern about missionaries in Israel, and I do understand that it doesn't come from a place of bigotry toward missionaries/Messianic jews/Christians in general. It comes from a legitimate fear that they will convince Jews to convert, and frankly, even as a secular jew, its a little concerning. For me personally, the concern doesn't come from a place of religion in adn of itself, but rather culture/identity, and the idea of thinking that there are so few people (relatively) that identify themselves as jews today, and there is so much (thousands of years) or rich history that frankly does feel as if it's just going away. In addition, not to get to deep into bigotry, it does seem as though anti-semetism is on the rise again (actually, it doesn't just seem like it, statistics show it to be the case) and it can be a little disconcerning to know that as there are fewer of us to stand up for ourselves, we are frankly outnumbered, and as a result, synagogues are being attacked on a more regular basis, holocaust memorials are being vandalized, jews that are visually identifiable are being harassed and even words like "Jew" or "Zionist" are more commonly becoming used as derogatory terms for people of whatever faith. So yes, on that level, very concerning. However, on the topic of the missionary playing music at a store, well you can look at this in 2 ways. Was the Rabbi being discriminatory if the missionary was just playing everyday music that wasn't trying to "spread his message" and was just doing his thing, then yes. If however that missionary was playing music that was not cohesive with the shop owners views, or/and was having out flyers, and the shop owner felt it was inappropriate to be played at the front of his store, well then no, its not discrimination. Beyond it being the shop owners right to not have people doing things in or at his store he deems to be opposed to his values, it is frankly normal for someone to not want someone doing something at or in their property they deem to be unacceptable. Would it be discriminatory for a christian store owner of a Cristian store to send someone packing that was singing about praising Allah and Mohamed? No, it would not only be uncomfortable for the store owner but for the customers and as a private business, they have every right. To the author, I really and truly think that your logic on this topic comes from a place of bias as you have somehow equated the actions of one rabbi with the actions/views of all Israelis. Even based on the article title one could come to that conclusion. Based on your logic, everyone in the world is a bigot since every country has citizens that could be deemed as being bigoted. Now how about the statistics that 80% of people from Turkey would not live next to a Jew or a Christian, and you would be amazed about similar statistics coming out of places like Pakistan and Egypt. There are certainly many other places in the world that you could have a look at to find some real widespread bigotry that you could at that point certainly draw a conclusion from. If you find bigotry to be abhorrent, then look to where bigotry has become mainstream and fully accepted within the culture. If you think that bigotry in wrong, then draw your attention to where the attention is well deserved. First, let me take this as an opportunity to state that just as there are religious folk in Christianity or Islam that do/say things that seem a little nuts, that does not give people a reason to use it as an excuse to promote their personal hatred/stereotypes. Having said that, when events made by a large number of people from a particular religion continually do things that seem pretty nuts, that should most certainly be reflected on, to prevent horrific events in which religion is used as a basis (e.g. the inquisition or the attack in mumbai for example). Anyway, I do have an opinion on this event that comes from a place of understanding. On the one hand, I do recognize why there is a concern about missionaries in Israel, and I do understand that it doesn’t come from a place of bigotry toward missionaries/Messianic jews/Christians in general. It comes from a legitimate fear that they will convince Jews to convert, and frankly, even as a secular jew, its a little concerning. For me personally, the concern doesn’t come from a place of religion in adn of itself, but rather culture/identity, and the idea of thinking that there are so few people (relatively) that identify themselves as jews today, and there is so much (thousands of years) or rich history that frankly does feel as if it’s just going away. In addition, not to get to deep into bigotry, it does seem as though anti-semetism is on the rise again (actually, it doesn’t just seem like it, statistics show it to be the case) and it can be a little disconcerning to know that as there are fewer of us to stand up for ourselves, we are frankly outnumbered, and as a result, synagogues are being attacked on a more regular basis, holocaust memorials are being vandalized, jews that are visually identifiable are being harassed and even words like “Jew” or “Zionist” are more commonly becoming used as derogatory terms for people of whatever faith. So yes, on that level, very concerning. However, on the topic of the missionary playing music at a store, well you can look at this in 2 ways. Was the Rabbi being discriminatory if the missionary was just playing everyday music that wasn’t trying to “spread his message” and was just doing his thing, then yes. If however that missionary was playing music that was not cohesive with the shop owners views, or/and was having out flyers, and the shop owner felt it was inappropriate to be played at the front of his store, well then no, its not discrimination. Beyond it being the shop owners right to not have people doing things in or at his store he deems to be opposed to his values, it is frankly normal for someone to not want someone doing something at or in their property they deem to be unacceptable. Would it be discriminatory for a christian store owner of a Cristian store to send someone packing that was singing about praising Allah and Mohamed? No, it would not only be uncomfortable for the store owner but for the customers and as a private business, they have every right.

To the author, I really and truly think that your logic on this topic comes from a place of bias as you have somehow equated the actions of one rabbi with the actions/views of all Israelis. Even based on the article title one could come to that conclusion. Based on your logic, everyone in the world is a bigot since every country has citizens that could be deemed as being bigoted. Now how about the statistics that 80% of people from Turkey would not live next to a Jew or a Christian, and you would be amazed about similar statistics coming out of places like Pakistan and Egypt. There are certainly many other places in the world that you could have a look at to find some real widespread bigotry that you could at that point certainly draw a conclusion from. If you find bigotry to be abhorrent, then look to where bigotry has become mainstream and fully accepted within the culture. If you think that bigotry in wrong, then draw your attention to where the attention is well deserved.

]]> By: Yeze http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/17/cultural-boycott-israel-bigots-calling-boycotts-messianic-musicians-playing-israel/comment-page-1/#comment-9433 Yeze Wed, 18 Nov 2009 16:53:07 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=8667#comment-9433 Rabbi Wolf - what did it say on the guy's identity card, did it say he was Jewish? Has he served in the IDF? Why didn't you go to the police if he was breaking the law, why did you go to the owner? As your answer suggests: because he was religious, and you played off his prejudices to exclude this guy. If there was nothing to suggest he would hand out missionary flyers then what were you worried about? You obviously are inclined towards bigotry, even if you can't admit it to yourself. But you should really take a look in the mirror. Imagine if this had happened in the USA and Christians had banned a Matisyahu gig because he's Orthodox Jewish and sings about Moshiach. You'd be livid, and rightly so. So don't do it to other people. Rabbi Wolf – what did it say on the guy’s identity card, did it say he was Jewish? Has he served in the IDF? Why didn’t you go to the police if he was breaking the law, why did you go to the owner?

As your answer suggests: because he was religious, and you played off his prejudices to exclude this guy. If there was nothing to suggest he would hand out missionary flyers then what were you worried about?

You obviously are inclined towards bigotry, even if you can’t admit it to yourself. But you should really take a look in the mirror.

Imagine if this had happened in the USA and Christians had banned a Matisyahu gig because he’s Orthodox Jewish and sings about Moshiach. You’d be livid, and rightly so.

So don’t do it to other people.

]]> By: Rabbi Mottle Wolfe http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/2009/11/17/cultural-boycott-israel-bigots-calling-boycotts-messianic-musicians-playing-israel/comment-page-1/#comment-9385 Rabbi Mottle Wolfe Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:55:39 +0000 http://blog.echurchwebsites.org.uk/?p=8667#comment-9385 Hi There, I am the one that prevented the Christian Missionary from playing the gig. There was no strong arming or bigotry involved. The problem wasn't that the guy was Christian, it was that he did not reveal that fact that he was a missionary, and he claimed to be Jewish when he was not. I simply called the owner of the establishment and informed him of the fact. The owner was a religious Jew who was HORRIFIED that he had been allowing a missionary a public forum in his establishment. Upon learning the TRUTH of the situation, the owner decided not to allow him to play which is his right. If the owner of the bar did not have a problem with a missionary playing there, he would have played, and I would have dropped it. I just simple brought the truth of a situation to light and I do not appreciate being called a bigot, or a "religious hardliner". I have no hatred for this particular missionary or for Christians in general, just a shining love for all of humanity that is created in G-d's Image. Blessings from Jerusalem Hi There,
I am the one that prevented the Christian Missionary from playing the gig. There was no strong arming or bigotry involved. The problem wasn’t that the guy was Christian, it was that he did not reveal that fact that he was a missionary, and he claimed to be Jewish when he was not. I simply called the owner of the establishment and informed him of the fact. The owner was a religious Jew who was HORRIFIED that he had been allowing a missionary a public forum in his establishment. Upon learning the TRUTH of the situation, the owner decided not to allow him to play which is his right. If the owner of the bar did not have a problem with a missionary playing there, he would have played, and I would have dropped it. I just simple brought the truth of a situation to light and I do not appreciate being called a bigot, or a “religious hardliner”. I have no hatred for this particular missionary or for Christians in general, just a shining love for all of humanity that is created in G-d’s Image.
Blessings from Jerusalem

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